Thoughts about Carnica and Langstroth hives

[Murox]

I am thinking of obtaining some poly hives for next year and which type of bee to populate them with.
What are peoples opinions/experiences with A.M.Carnica. and how they cope with wind combined with cooler wet days and maybe having to use their maximum forage range ? I read they over-winter well in smallish colonies, yet build up very rapidly in spring so they need plenty of room: but is their swarming propensity really that much greater than others, and are daughter queens colonies resulting from cross-breeding with other strains particularly aggressive?
I am also keen to hear opinions/experiences/plus and minus points with Langstroth Abelo and Langstroth Honey Paw poly hives and Carnica.

 

[Walrus]

Of all the things that cause fights on this forum, surely the "types of bee" topic is one of the leading examples.

In my opinion, unless you continually buy all your queens from a reputable breeder who has control over both drones & queens, you are going to end up with something different to what you started with. I also think that as long as your bees do well who cares what type they are?

From what I have seen, heard and to some extent experienced, if you cull your poor queens and raise daughter queens from your best, in a short time your overall stock will improve.

I'm sure that there are fantastic colonies of bees of all types just as there are evil colonies of all types.

 

[Murox]

Perhaps I phrased my question poorly, no intention of causing a fight.

I am thinking about/ weighing up pros and cons of a particular bee in a wet windy marginal zone using a particular hive type.
The point about controlled breeding etc is well made and of course there will always be the possibility of aggressive colonies.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Have you any neighbours or a local association who over winter colonies successfully? You could start with what they have.

 

[Beefriendly]

Have you any neighbours or a local association who over winter colonies successfully? You could start with what they have.

I would add to the mix have you any other beekeepers around whose bees consistently collect honey and are those queens fecund enough to justify a langstroth brood box....approx National brood plus a half in volume
In today's poly brood boxes overwintering success is much easier as we cosset them.

 

[B+.]

I am thinking of obtaining some poly hives for next year and which type of bee to populate them with.
What are peoples opinions/experiences with A.M.Carnica. and how they cope with wind combined with cooler wet days and maybe having to use their maximum forage range ? I read they over-winter well in smallish colonies, yet build up very rapidly in spring so they need plenty of room: but is their swarming propensity really that much greater than others, and are daughter queens colonies resulting from cross-breeding with other strains particularly aggressive?
I am also keen to hear opinions/experiences/plus and minus points with Langstroth Abelo and Langstroth Honey Paw poly hives and Carnica.

Like most things, I think you'll find different people have different experience depending on where they get their queens from.
I don't think it's any secret that I breed Amc within the Beebreed programme. This means I have access to bees that are a bit better than the average bee. In fact, I tested them for hygienic behaviour a couple of days ago and found 96-100% in my test group. What you have to remember though is that these are control mated queens from within a breeding programme. They are always going to be better than those that are commercially available.
I hear different reports from people who have bought carnica from different sources. I can't really comment on these except to say that I don't see any signs of swarming etc that others report. From my experience, they are productive, healthy bees that don't swarm and have a growing level of varroa tolerance. Even people who have open mated queens I've supplied have reported that they're very happy with them - but - it's a fact that these will never be as good as the bees I have in my test group. They are open mated daughters of the better performing queens in my test group but I would never recommend them as breeding queens. The queen and her drones will be pure carnica but the workers can't be guaranteed (because the drones that the queen mates with could be anything).
I find that they do develop early and quickly so even though they don't need a huge overwinter population, you still should give them a decent amount of space because they grow quickly in the Spring. It can catch you out if you aren't expecting it. I suspect this is why people experience swarming issues. A National would definitely be too small. I overwinter a newly mated queen in 1-2 Langstroth deeps depending on how late she was mated and how quickly she builds her colony. Certainly, I would have them in double Langstroths by the following summer. Add to that the amount of super space they will fill, you would definitely need to keep ontop of the space (my open mated queens generally get 2-3 Langstroth deeps as supers i.e 4-5 in total) - but that is in my area. It could be different somewhere else. Take a look at my photo album (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751 ) to see what I mean.
Now, you also asked about hive type. I use both wood and poly (Paradise Honey and Swienty). They all do what they are supposed to. There are things I like about the Swienty box and things I like about Paradise Honey. I would look at the cost. Pick a style and stick with it. Bear in mind that they may not be fully compatible (i.e. flat or recessed top/bottoms) and you may be making a strategic investment that might be difficult to change in the future.
Of course, I'm a long way south of you and others in your area may disagree.

 

[Murox]

Have you any neighbours or a local association who over winter colonies successfully? You could start with what they have.

What the local association have (and members) is all wood nationals with AMm type locals about 15-20 windy road miles away.
Nearest and maybe the only bee neighbour is around 3 miles as the bee flies and he also has national wood. Its fairly "isolated' on this peninsular.

Beefriendly - I also have AMm type locals, very docile, however these are not the best honey makers, but they are fecund enough, especially when given a little help early in the year (I've proved that this year in a homemade insulated wood box).

B+ - you seem to be confirming pretty much what I thought regarding queens and breeding. I have a black queen coming from J Getty shortly in order to compare with the locals.(next season )
Thanks for the infos on the hives , its a minor nightmare trying to make sense of the "proprietary" features and so on from pictures and advertising scripts. Its just too far to pop along to a supplier and have a look in person.

 

[Beefriendly]

Poly hives will give you an "edge" as I found out over a few years ago by comparing bees in wood vs poly. Much better overwintering and larger colonies come spring.
However, I suspect the biggest obstacles you may face is your weather (affects flying days) coupled with the available forage.
But nothing ventured nothing gained. Having tried Carnies in my local environment I went with good quality Buckfast as they seem the better option. Now if you can persuade B+ to part with some of his surplus queens...../hint/

 

[Murox]

Poly hives will give you an "edge" as I found out over a few years ago by comparing bees in wood vs poly. Much better overwintering and larger colonies come spring.
However, I suspect the biggest obstacles you may face is your weather (affects flying days) coupled with the available forage.
But nothing ventured nothing gained. Having tried Carnies in my local environment I went with good quality Buckfast as they seem the better option. Now if you can persuade B+ to part with some of his surplus queens...../hint/

Spot on. Weather and available forage are significant variables. (So I want a super bee that packs in the nectar come what may )
May I ask what persuaded you towards Buckfast ?

 

[For want of a better word]

Thoughts about Carnica and Langstroth hives

My thoughts are that I would rather not think about either....... far easier to use what the locality dictates.... Local dark bees and Smith's?

You only realise you have made the wrong decision once you have made it... bit of a Calvanistic approach !

Chons da

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a black queen coming from J Getty shortly in order to compare with the locals.(next season )

They're good queens - docile, prolific and good honey gatherers, they should fill a Langstroth no problem.

 

[B+.]

Thoughts about Carnica and Langstroth hives

My thoughts are that I would rather not think about either....... far easier to use what the locality dictates.... Local dark bees and Smith's?

You only realise you have made the wrong decision once you have made it... bit of a Calvanistic approach !

Chons da

The majority of beekeepers in my area have local mongrels, Buckfasts, etc...a real mix of everything that's going.
Since I started a breeding group last year, a few beekeepers have joined me and intended to test their Celle queens this year. This diddn't happen for one reason or another but I'll mentor them next year. I did an "open day" last year and another in the first week of July this year. I've had guests from neighbouring counties. I think it's safe to say that everyone was impressed and, I hope, learned a bit about proper bee breeding.
I hear lots of talk about "this bee" and "that bee". Lots of it is BS. Treat everything you read with caution. Consider the evidence. Make your own decision.

 

[Murox]

They're good queens - docile, prolific and good honey gatherers, they should fill a Langstroth no problem.

Thats encouraging to read, thanks.

 

[Murox]

Thoughts about Carnica and Langstroth hives

My thoughts are that I would rather not think about either....... far easier to use what the locality dictates.... Local dark bees and Smith's?

You only realise you have made the wrong decision once you have made it... bit of a Calvanistic approach !

Chons da

Not sure if anybody use Smith's hives , can you even obtain the parts anymore? I moved on from Calvinism - found the disapproval of Christmas celebrations and theatre, among other things a bit OTT.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Not sure if anybody use Smith's hives , can you even obtain the parts anymore?

Yes they do... and new ones are still being manufactured.

 

[Murox]

Now that is a surprise. A nice nugget of information.

 

[Fusion_power]

You will find a world of different information with regard to various races of bees and the hives they are kept in. Note that B+ keeps his Carni's in double Langstroth's. The reason being that a single is not enough for a prolific queen, especially in the spring buildup.

My suggestion is to determine which bee to keep based on local flows. Here are a few generalizations worth considering.

Carniolans are adapted to areas with strong spring and relatively weak fall flows. If this describes your conditions, then they will perform as well or better than other races.

Italians tend to brood up starting in the spring and maintaining a large colony all summer and into the fall and overwintering with a large cluster. In my area, that huge colony in mid-summer and all winter is a huge detriment. Italians can be really good honey producers, but my experience is that their wintering ability is not good enough.

The A.M.m. colonies I've worked with would build up very strong in the spring, then curtail brood rearing during the summer, and increase numbers again for the fall flows. Their weakness is a very strong tendency to swarm and a tendency to collect honeydew in preference to floral honey. Their incredible vitality and ability to survive with very small colonies over winter make them acceptable in some areas. I won't use them because of issues with the honey produced.

Buckfast have to be given consideration, especially if you have a strong spring flow and another strong fall flow. They can easily fill a double Langstroth with bees and brood. I can use Buckfast to good effect with the flows and conditions under which I keep bees.

Caucasian's have advantages in areas with long slow spring buildup and especially when the fall flow is very strong. I won't use them because they fall short in the spring flow. They are also inveterate propolis hoarders gumming up every interior surface with sticky goo.

From the description of your region, Carniolans and Buckfast should be primary contenders.



So what bees do I keep? My bees are mutts from crossing A.M.m. with Italians and with a bit of Africanized genetics tossed in. I have not treated for varroa since the winter of 2004/2005. My bees exhibit strong hygienic behavior with a dose of hive beetle resistance from the Africanized genes. I have little or no problem managing them as I culled the worst stingers and kept the bees that could be worked while wearing a t-shirt and jeans. My current breeding project is to raise queens from 2nd generation Buckfast and mate them back to drones from my line. I'm getting very gentle bees with excellent honey production, zero issues with varroa, and good control of hive beetles.

 

[foghornleghorn]

For my area, I found the carnis were slow to buildup. 2-3 weeks behind buckfast but very similar to buckfast after that.
Be careful where you buy them as some are very swarmy

 

[Leigh]

Swienty Langstroths

I bought a considerable number of Swienty Langstroths last year.

Generally, they perform well, but like most things they are not perfect. From my experience, their shortcomings are:

1) Fit of Queen Excluder

I have been keeping bees one way or another for over 40 years, and have never (until recently) had queens get into supers. The Swienty wire excluders (made by Lega) sit in a recess on top of the frames. The interior dimensions of the Swienty box and consequential fit of the QE vary slightly - add to this a small amount of chewing and my occasional early bad use of a hive tool and you have several ways that a queen can squeeze past. I will have to make frames for all my excluders over winter to counteract this problem next season, as brood in comb destined to be cut is definitely not welcome! So, some unwanted queens in supers were my fault, others were down to dodgy dimensions. I now use the second frame in as a fulcrum to remove the first/last frame.

2) Design of floor means no ability to fit "Queen Includer" under the brood chamber when performing an artificial swarm.

My usual habit when I was using wooden 14x12 nationals was to put a queen excluder underneath the brood box of the queenright part of a split until the queen had settled. I must admit that I haven't lost many queens without this method, but it is an option I would have liked. The design of the Swienty floors means that there isn't an easy way to do this.

3) Frames: swell considerably when boiling/cleansing.

The Swienty wired frames are made of Linden/Lime wood. They look very robust, but after boiling, only 9 can be fitted into a 10 box. After a few days, they will shrink back. Not a deal breaker, but just annoying.

So, apart from the niggles above, I'm very pleased with my Swienty Langs. I use Jumbo/Dadant broods, and deep supers (the latter are blo*dy heavy - around 35kg when full...may live to regret that!). Although the early warmth of this February wasn't a good barometer to test Spring buildup, the Poly Langs were certainly ahead of my wooden hives.

 

[GuyNir]

I have a black queen coming from J Getty shortly in order to compare with the locals.(next season )

Would be interested to hear how you get on with those. My weather conditions are not far from yours.