Those many factors affecting mite reproduction

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Finman

Queen Bee
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
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Location
Finland, Helsinki
Hive Type
Langstroth
Ha ha, i see the Konya hive is mentioned.
Some people got their deep pockets filled with money from selling it ( at one time it was sold for 300+ euro/each in Bulgaria), before everybody to find out that this hive is a fraud.
Others were forced to eat the most expensive honey in the WORLD by themselves, as contrary to their expectations this hive didn't produced tons of honey either, not even 1/10 from what they usually get from a regular hive.
 
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Very Interesting paper and learned a few new things, what I found amazing that the mites did not like the chemical odour from royal jelly and humidity affected the reproduction,
 
Very Interesting paper ......and humidity affected the reproduction,

Yes ... that was very encouraging for me ... I've been measuring the RH at the top of my hive for some weeks and it fluctuates (at present) between about 63% and 75% but before the colder weather started it was high 70's and even up to 89% ! So ... with a bit of luck and if this paper is correct then any varroa in my hive are going to have a slightly uncomfortable time !!
 
I have never really looked at humidity on the weather forecast but being in Wales and lots of rain and high humidity levels might explain why Wales had the lowest national varroa count last year
Perhaps someone should start a humidity level/varroa drop count thread so those beekeepers with such test equipment can compare results
 
I
Perhaps someone should start a humidity level/varroa drop count thread so those beekeepers with such test equipment can compare results

I just wrote that the humidity thing is humbug. It is only one reseach in jungle 1997 and other researchers have not bothered to continue the reseach. Humbug, because you cannot change your weather.

.It does not take many minutes when you treat the hives against varroa.
 
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I just wrote that the humidity thing is humbug. It is only one reseach in jungle 1997 and other researchers have not bothered to continue the reseach. Humbug, because you cannot change your weather.

.It does not take many minutes when you treat the hives against varroa.

Sorry Finman ... the relative humidity (RH) levels at the top of the hive immediately above the frames and below the crown board are not controlled by the external weather ... but by the action of the bees.

I've been monitoring it and there is a relationship between the foraging activity (which also relates to the activity going on inside the hive) and the RH - which usually translates into a variation in RH depending upon the time of day ~ but there appears to be absolutely no correlation between external temperature, rainfall or humidity and the RH inside the hive. Clearly, there is a relationship between the temperature inside the hive and the RH but the hive temperature, again, is largely controlled by the bees (and yes, I am measuring that as well).

The HR increases as they ripen the honey overnight and reduces during the day when they are foraging ... if it's a day when they can't forage to any extent it stays higher than on those days when they can forage.

You may consider it humbug and you are welcome to your view but don't position yourself as an expert when clearly you don't know what you are on about.

Obviously, my observations are based on my (very well insulated) hive and my colony and I take the measurements out of interest in what is going on inside the hive and what the bees are doing.

I think there is a whole raft of benefits to be gained from providing conditions for the bees that allow them to easily regulate the temp and humidity levels that THEY want for the colony... DerekM appears to be proving, by some very accurate measurements, what I have seen from my limited equipment and observations of my (single) colony.

Poly hives are now widely accepted as good for bees and beekeeping and I think, in the future, beekeepers will more and more start to accept that heavily insulated hives, all the year round - whatever materials are used in their construction - are the way forward.
 
Sorry Finman ... the relative humidity (RH) levels at the top of the hive immediately above the frames and below the crown board are not controlled by the external weather ... but by the action of the bees.

Are you able to add sensors lower down? Probes beween 2 brood frames would give a more accurate representation of what the larvae and mites are experiencing.

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I just wrote that the humidity thing is humbug. It is only one reseach in jungle 1997 and other researchers have not bothered to continue the reseach. Humbug, because you cannot change your weather.

.It does not take many minutes when you treat the hives against varroa.

No, but you can change your hive set-up, eg ventilation.

And it doesn't take long to treat a hive, but anything that slows the build-up between treatments, as long as it doesn't have other adverse effects, must be a good thing.


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Are you able to add sensors lower down? Probes beween 2 brood frames would give a more accurate representation of what the larvae and mites are experiencing.

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I have a temperature sensor on the top of the mesh floor which usually tells me that the floor temperature is about 1 to 1.5 degrees above the external air temperature, so there is a heating influence as far as the bottom of my 14 x 12 frames from the colony heat.

It is possible to hang another sensor between the brood frames but the bees are not that keen on it and when I tried it, they actually managed to encase the sender in a big glob of wax ... not cells, just a sort of lump of distorted comb - so I assumed they didn't like it and took it away from there and mounted it above the mesh floor where they seem to tolerate it quite happily.

The sender above the frames is in a vertical tube set in the crown board, it's sealed at the top end to stop any air leaking out from the top and the bottom of the tube has a mesh grill to stop the bees getting at it - oddly, they do not propolise this mesh (presumably because it does not represent a heat loss).

Whilst it would be nice to measure 'colony' temperatures it's just too difficult with the equipment I have (DerekM has some nice little PCB's with mini senders on them that do just this). I made the decision that, as heat rises, I would get measurements from above the frames that were proportional to the colony temperatures but perhaps a couple of degrees lower. Either way, it provides me with some information which, IME, is better than no information.

The original idea was to be able to determine when/if the internal hive temperature in winter dropped below the level at which they can survive ... either through bees dying off or stores running out. The thinking was that, whilst I'm recording daily temperatures above 10 degrees above the frames I have a viable colony in the hive ... if I see it dropping steadily or rapidly then I may have a problem and can do something about it. Primitive thinking but ... best I can do. Total cost is less than £15 for 2 digital thermometers and a further humidity/temp device to give me my measurements. The monitoring is, unfotunately, manual ... I have a look two or three times a day and write the readings down ... but can't complain for what it cost !!!

I have a couple of small 12v heat pads which, if I see the colony temps dropping or we get a particularly cold spell, are linked to a temp sender/switch - these would be sited below the mesh floor to add a few degrees if the need arises. Though, I am hopeful that they will not be required. I really consider these a last resort .... although Finman heats his hives to promote spring build up - so the options there.
 
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... the relative humidity (RH) levels at the top of the hive immediately above the frames and below the crown board are not controlled by the external weather ... but by the action of the bees.

No, not really, not as such.

The bees quite critically control the brood nest temperature, and they promote ventilation if the humidity in the rest of the hive is too high for nectar evaporation (if that is happening).
Thus the temperature above the frames is not being controlled by the bees. Yes, its influenced by their actions, but it is not being controlled by them.

Go back to the brood nest. In the UK (almost all the time) that is going to be the hottest part of the hive - and insulated by bee bodies. Because it is hotter, the humidity there is lower.
To get the humidity in the brood nest above the 80% minimum used in the 1997 paper, the humidity in the (cooler) rest of the hive would have to be even higher - but the bees won't stand for that. Because the excessive humidity prevents nectar evaporation (and promotes moulds) the bees natural response is to ventilate.
As the 1997 paper tries in passing to explain, it is only when the external temperature AND humidity are simultaneously high that the bees "hive climate control" can be defeated.
RH decreases with increasing temperature. Since ambient tempera- ture in cold and temperate climates is generally clearly below brood nest temperature, RH within the brood nest is comparably low even when ambient RH is high. RH in the brood nest of A. mellifera colonies is usually about 40% [14], and most likely lev- els above 70% hardly occur in tempe- rate and cold climates even under ex- treme conditions [15]. In Mediterra- nean climates during summer tem- peratures close to brood nest tempera- ture are frequent, but RH is usually low. Only in tropical climates are both temperature and RH frequently high.

The 1997 paper used incubators to achieve those conditions BECAUSE the bees would not allow such conditions in a real hive - they would fight against them, not least by increasing the rate of air-change in the hive.
Trying to generate those conditions in a hive with temperate conditions outside would simply result in your forcing the bees into wasting more of their energies on aircon.
The only way (outside of an incubator) that you will get sustained brood nest humidity above 80% is when you have tropically high temperature and humidity outside the hive - so that the bees aircon effort does nothing - when they choose not to waste their energy.

The 1997 paper explains why varroa are more of a problem in hot/temperate climates than in really hot (and humid) tropical ones.
It does not see 80% humidity in the brood nest as being practically achievable when air change with the outside is possible.
Sure, you could seal them in and steam cook them, but what will happen is that a large number of bees will vacate the hive (possibly even abscond) and nectar evaporation will stop, existing nectar work in progress will ferment, and bees will get sick.
High ambient temperatures combined with high RH do not allow honey bees to control conditions sig- nificantly and the bees partially evac- uate the nest, clustering at the nest en- trance [17]. Under tropical conditions RH values within the brood nest are therefore most likely frequently equal to ambient RH.
And you'd have to keep this up for months (varroa can live outside brood cells through the winter) to get varroa numbers to decline.

The paper explains a previously puzzling observation; it does not indicate a novel control method for use in temperate climates. Unfortunate but true.
 
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Sorry Finman ... the relative humidity (RH) levels at the top of the hive immediately above the frames and below the crown board are not controlled by the external weather ... but by the action of the bees.

I've been monitoring it and there is a relationship between the foraging activity .

Holy ship. I read from beekeeping book 50 years ago that bees keep very steady temperature in their brood nest.



May Force be with 1-hive owners' monitoring

MayTheForceBeWithYou.jpg


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...
The original idea was to be able to determine when/if the internal hive temperature in winter dropped below the level at which they can survive ... either through bees dying off or stores running out. ...

I have a couple of small 12v heat pads... Though, I am hopeful that they will not be required. I really consider these a last resort .... although Finman heats his hives to promote spring build up - so the options there.

The bees can survive with an internal hive temperature well below zero.

In order to raise brood, they have to heat a brood nest (not the rest of the hive!) above 30C. They can do that inside a cluster, in a cold hive.
Finman's heater is to make it easier (less bees required) to raise more brood, earlier - so he maximises the use of his short season.
Our problem can be the reverse, that the colonies are building up (and consuming stores very much faster) too soon - before there is adequate forage around, leading to inadequately monitored colonies starving in March or even April.
 
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Look at that

https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream...d=49024004E9E2FB5D104C00479B057E98?sequence=1

HIVE TEMPERATURES FOR EACH HOUR OF A DAY.*
W. E. DUNHAM,
Department of Zoology and Entomology,
Ohio State University, Columbus. 1931


Francis Huber (1791) who was one of the early investigators
on bee life, made observations on brooding temperatures. He
stated that in hives rearing brood during the month of January
he had obtained the temperature of 93 degrees F ( = 34C)

Huber stated that the ordinary
temperature of hives in summer was from 95 degrees to 97 F (=35-36C)
. One particular observation was made when the
outside temperature was 94 degrees F. At the same time in
the most populous hive it did not rise above 99 degrees F. (= 37C)
 
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Finman's heater is to make it easier (less bees required) to raise more brood, earlier - so he maximises the use of his short season.

Our problem can be the reverse, that the colonies are building up (and consuming stores very much faster) too soon - before there is adequate forage around, leading to inadequately monitored colonies starving in March or even April.

If I have here a brooding hive in autumn, it will die before December. It consumes its food.

And the spring. The value of heating...

I start brood rearing with pollen patty about 7th April, when over half of groud is free from snow. Then weathers are cold. IT is not rare that nights are -6C or - 10C. Bees must keep very tight cluster. Natural brood rearing starts after first of May when willows start to bloom. They must get pollen.

Then at the end of April quite often the hive has lost 50% of its bees when they search early flowers in bad weather. Foragers are not able to return home: cold wind, falling onto snow, rain shower, bad physical condition, went too far and no fuel to return

Again, in May, before the new bees emerge, half of bees die in foraging willows. The colony is at its smallest at the end of May and then new bees start to emerge.

At the end of may all winter bees have died

in May too, nights are often -5C. And the hive cannot heat a big brood area.

When colony has too big brood area, and then weathers are bad, they will destroy those brood which they cannot keep warm. Often chalkbrood bursts at that time.

Brood produces as much heat as resting worker. It helps a small colony.

It is same with swarm in summer. When foirst brood start to emerge, the colony has lost half or its original swarm bees.

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Sometimes I have had huge beehives after winter, but when I look them 2 months later at the end of May, I wondered, why big hives are as big as half size hives. When hives has no pollen before willow blooming, they search food and die on their journeys.


Now, when I give early pollen patty, giant colonies will have giant brood volumes. It is direct relationship between cluster and brood area. At first the number of nurser bees in the cluster is the minimum factor in brood rearing.

Last spring many hives dwindled away before they started to get new bees from brood. I took queens away and I made new nucs with healty bees.
I think that nosema had a big role in this disaster.
 
"The RH increases as they ripen the honey overnight and reduces during the day when they are foraging ... if it's a day when they can't forage to any extent it stays higher than on those days when they can forage."

or could simply be interpreted as an indicator of the number of respiring organisms within the hive.

so during a foraging day one could imagine that a significant number of foragers will be outside at any one moment whilst at night or rainy day 100% will be inside.

varroa has evolved to survive and reproduce in the RH and temps found in bee colonies. the former can vary significantly as shown. temperature however is tightly controlled and so is the important factor.
 
Because it is hotter, the humidity there is lower.

I see the point, but you're assuming constant partial vapour pressure. There'll be respiration fuelling the high temps, generating H2O and so a vapour pressure gradient which might be quite high because diffusion is going to be somewhat constrained. What I don;t understand in this whole humidity story is that the RH in the cell must be +/-100% all the time.
 

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