Thinking about the queen in the swarm cell I threw away

[LittleGreyRabbit]

As the colony has already swarmed - and I don't yet know if I can retrieve the swarm from the tree - would it have been better (in hindsight) to move the frame with the queen in her swarm cell that I found today into the new hive? Instead of chucking her in the garden pond.

Would she have stayed put in the now queenless hive or was she "programmed" to take off with a swarm anyway?

I suppose some more queen cells will appear in the next five days, as the old queen has gone off. If I haven't been able to hive the swarm, these new queen cells will be all I have to keep both hives going. Do I go on destroying swarm cells and hoping for cells on the face of the frames? or are any and all queen cells now worth looking after until two emerge (one for each hive). Assuming that I don't catch the swarm.

Thanks in advance.

 

[andypigeon]

have you split the hive after they have swarmed, if so put back together take out all sealed queen cells and leave 2 uncapped cells

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

have you split the hive after they have swarmed, if so put back together take out all sealed queen cells and leave 2 uncapped cells

No, not split the hive. Only have one new, empty hive and am still hoping that the swarm will find it. The swarm is hanging near the top of a tree in my neighbour's garden, and the hive is only a few feet from the base of the tree.

OK, will keep inspecting for uncapped queen cells over the coming week.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Would she have stayed put in the now queenless hive or was she "programmed" to take off with a swarm anyway?

I suppose some more queen cells will appear in the next five days, as the old queen has gone off. If I haven't been able to hive the swarm, these new queen cells will be all I have to keep both hives going. Do I go on destroying swarm cells and hoping for cells on the face of the frames? or are any and all queen cells now worth looking after until two emerge (one for each hive). Assuming that I don't catch the swarm.

Thanks in advance.

The queen in the swarm cell would have been left in the hive when the old queen swarmed so yes, in hindsight it would have been better to do a 'split' with the old queen in one and the new(qc) in the other hive - but no point dwelling, be positive and move on. As now the hive has no queen cells whatsoever Any queen cell now formed will be emergency cells and most probably in the middle of the frame. but don't destroy it as it will probably be your last chance of them raising a new queen.
Also just concentrate on having one hive at the end of it (Unless you manage to coax back your original swarm)

 

[Midland Beek]

Have a good read of the chapter of your bee book called 'Swarming'.

You know if you are unsure of exactly what is happening in your one colony I just would not be inclined to destroy any queen cells. Doing so might work against your one colony getting itself queenright again.

But someone with more experience would split the swarmed stock giving each part a queen cell or two, thus increasing the chances of you coming out of this with at least one mated queen. That said, making a split might not be possible if the swarm that left was a second swarm.

 

[drstitson]

don't keep destroying cells.

you now have no queen so no source of new eggs.

this is now your last chance to get QCs from that colony.

you have a choice now.

go in 3-4 days after your last look and keep best unsealed cell with nice larva in it.

if you have a nuc handy and several frames with cells on i'd make up a nuc as a guarantee.

do i understand correctly that you have 2 colonies and the swarm in a tree. if so at least you have a hive to provide eggs.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

The queen in the swarm cell would have been left in the hive when the old queen swarmed so yes, in hindsight it would have been better to do a 'split' with the old queen in one and the new(qc) in the other hive - but no point dwelling, be positive and move on. As now the hive has no queen cells whatsoever Any queen cell now formed will be emergency cells and most probably in the middle of the frame. but don't destroy it as it will probably be your last chance of them raising a new queen.
Also just concentrate on having one hive at the end of it (Unless you manage to coax back your original swarm)

Could I ask: why would a new queen who would have led a cast swarm if I hadn't culled her change her "mind" and become a new queen who remained in the hive if I hadn't culled her?

The document I read, to which a couple of other people have linked,

http://www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

says that one cannot afford to miss destroying any swarm cells.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

do i understand correctly that you have 2 colonies and the swarm in a tree. if so at least you have a hive to provide eggs.

No, I have one colony and one empty hive in which I am trying to entice the swarm which is still in the tree a few feet away (but too high up).

I don't have a nuc.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

don't keep destroying cells.

you now have no queen so no source of new eggs.

this is now your last chance to get QCs from that colony.

Just to say that I am following the "remedy" in this document

http://www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

to the letter.

 

[drstitson]

think about it.

swarming is bee reproduction.

old queen leaves with swarm and founds new colony.
old colony contains one or more swarm cells.
if one - virgin emerges, mates and colony continues. No swarm. RESULT. there are now two colonies instead of one.
if more than one. virgins emerge. may kill each other. may leave as casts. end result - weakened colony with new queen plus small new colonies with new queens. possible even better result, if they survive.

casts usually involve excess virgins ie not your one and only sole hope for the colony.
(ok may lose the odd mating swarm but most of the time...)

your parent colony needs leaving ONE good queen cell if it makes any (and not one in a patch of drone brood). if it doesn't/can't then you need a frame of eggs from a neighbour.
your swarm needs hiving.

 

[drstitson]

"Just to say that I am following the "remedy" in this document

http://www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

to the letter."

can't remember reading anywhere in the welsh booklet to destroy solitary queen cells in swarm situation. quite the opposite in fact.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

"Just to say that I am following the "remedy" in this document

http://www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

to the letter."

can't remember reading anywhere in the welsh booklet to destroy solitary queen cells in swarm situation. quite the opposite in fact.

She was in one of 38 swarm cells. She was not solitary.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

ie not your one and only sole hope for the colony.
(ok may lose the odd mating swarm but most of the time...)

As I have said, she was not (in) the only swarm cell.

 

[Teemore]

Did you leave any queen cells in the colony or did you destroy every last one?

 

[drstitson]

okay - have reread previous thread.

sounds to me like current swarm is a cast if you had a QC will fully formed queen in it. any other open empty QCs amongst the 38? prime swarm probably lost a week ago.

"But one of the first I cut off had been opened and resealed ("tear here" appearance on the cap). Inside was a queen bee waiting to go."

tear off appearance suggests ripe and ready to go NOT resealed.

if truly resealed it could be a worker inside and queen gone.

one of the few "advanatages" of brood and a half is that (apparently) more likely to get QCs along the bottom of the super frames - hence making quick swarm control inspections even easier.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

if truly resealed it could be a worker inside and queen gone.

The bee was head up, not head down. Apparently that means it wasn't a worker trapped by a tidy-minded sister.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

Did you leave any queen cells in the colony or did you destroy every last one?

I destroyed only swarm cells. I saw no queen cells on the face of any frame. There was one cell which looked as if it might be the start of a queen cell, on the face of one frame, so I made a mental note of where that is and will look at it again on Friday.

 

[LittleGreyRabbit]

one of the few "advanatages" of brood and a half is that (apparently) more likely to get QCs along the bottom of the super frames - hence making quick swarm control inspections even easier.

That is my experience: 35 of the 38 swarm cells were on the edges of the half-brood super frames.

 

[BeeMoustashe]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but you seem to be worrying alot about swarm cells vs queen cells. Swarm cell = queen cell. I know alot of literature talks about not breeding from swarm cells to avoid swarminess in future bees, but in my opinion that's for the bee breeders- us just wanting to control one colony's swarm urge are best off using the cells the bees provide- you could wait a long time to get the type of cell you're talking about, more commonly a supercedure cell, or an emergency cell can be made here but the queens produced from them... can be poor quality.

IMHO

 

[drstitson]

"I destroyed only swarm cells. I saw no queen cells on the face of any frame."

LGR

you need to read again.

all your cells were swarm cells. that's because bees were in swarm mode NOT emergency/supercedure mode. not because of location.

queen cells may be found anywhere. shape/distribution/number does vary according to emergency/supercedure/swarm but nothing written in stone.

when you have a swarm situation what you are aiming to do is AS if queen and swarm not yet gone and leave just one best cell (wherever located) in parent hive
OR if swarm already gone - go through parent hive as per AS and remove all bar one cell, again location unimportant (except wrt safety vs knocks etc).