Thermodynamics question

[Erichalfbee]

Anyone who was not born in Wales?

Counts me out then

 

[user 20297]

" cavity between wall and -internal- lining." Beebe

Agreed, (internally insulated) but you were responding to my point that external insulation can give rise to problems.
I see you maybe prefer internal insulation and that's fine.
The best solution is a house that is made of insulation: ie. SIPS...I live in one and so do my bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Anyone who was not born in Wales?

nope, I'm happy with people from all over the world (well, with maybe the odd exception )

 

[user 20297]

Is it?
Even if it is; what is good for human comfort isn't necessarily good for a free mating wild population.

The more you mollycoddle, the more you undercut the winnowing of the weak, the more you damage the population.

But that is my hobbyhorse which strictly must be kept confined to my personal blog. It doesn't belong here; no Sir!

Your idea would be better were it not for the fact that it's you that put your bees in your hives and therefore Nature didn't select the survival parameters.
If the bees had first chosen the hive and then they failed to survive within it, what you say would would make more sense to me.
Some wild bees will choose a nest that is better insulated and possibly drier than strictly necessary; if such a colony survives, should they be exterminated because they are weakening the genetics with their poor choice?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Your idea would be better were it not for the fact that it's you that put your bees in your hives and therefore Nature didn't select the survival parameters.
If the bees had first chosen the hive and then they failed to survive within it, what you say would would make more sense to me.
Some wild bees will choose a nest that is better insulated and possibly drier than strictly necessary; if such a colony survives, should they be exterminated because they are weakening the genetics with their poor choice?

Nooo, not here! I'll reply elsewhere

 

[Anduril]

Is it?
Even if it is; what is good for human comfort isn't necessarily good for a free mating wild population.

The more you mollycoddle, the more you undercut the winnowing of the weak, the more you damage the population.

But that is my hobbyhorse which strictly must be kept confined to my personal blog. It doesn't belong here; no Sir!

Wow! A poly hive is mollycoddling and for millions of years bees have lived inside trees in an environment with a rating exceeding poly. Trees their natural environment for natural beekeepers is now mollycoddling. This is starting to get very confusing. I thought 19mm walls were for unnatural beekeepers

 

[Beesnaturally]

Wow! A poly hive is mollycoddling and for millions of years bees have lived inside trees in an environment with a rating exceeding poly. Trees their natural environment for natural beekeepers is now mollycoddling. This is starting to get very confusing. I thought 19mm walls were for unnatural beekeepers

I made the point earlier that few trees are dry. If you'd done as much forestry work as I have you'd realise that.

A story I've told before: I used to collect swarms from a colony low in the broken stem of a living apple tree, the opening being roughly as big as the space occupied by comb. It was a few hundred yards from the north sea coast (though protected from direct wind by a garden fence).

A poly hive it wasn't. And yet I collected one or two good size swarms most years for 5 or 6 years.

Throughout evolution bees have lived where they can get away with it, from the equator to - well I don't know where. A lot of of the time hereabouts anyway that has been about a hundred times lower thermal protection than a poly hive I should think.

What I'm trying to say (for the second time) is: I think you are very wrong to make your assumption.

PS

 

[Anduril]

What I'm trying to say (for the second time) is: I think you are very wrong to make your assumption.

You have neglected to mention the waterproofing qualities of propolis when you look inside a cavity occupied by bees, as well as the anti-fungal and antibacterial qualities. Or didn't you notice how clever the bees were. They don't want tree sap dripping on them.

 

[Beesnaturally]

You have neglected to mention the waterproofing qualities of propolis when you look inside a cavity occupied by bees, as well as the anti-fungal and antibacterial qualities. Or didn't you notice how clever the bees were. They don't want tree sap dripping on them.

That's because my purpose on that occasion was to disabuse you of the notion that trees were warmer and dryer than polyhives. You're welcome.
Hive are covered in propolis too when and where the bees feel it useful.

I think its evolution that is responsible for these skills rather than bee cleverness. Just being picky because you are being persistently rude.

 

[Anduril]

persistently rude.

Having looked inside trees, it is an observation.
However, we are moving away from the OP which was originally an off topic question.

 

[Sutty]

It was left behind long long ago!
If I was a mod I'd be closing this now.

 

[Ian123]

You have neglected to mention the waterproofing qualities of propolis when you look inside a cavity occupied by bees, as well as the anti-fungal and antibacterial qualities. Or didn't you notice how clever the bees were. They don't want tree sap dripping on them.

Having been into many tree cavities and whilst seeing some truly amazing worn and propolised wood I don’t think I’d ever describe any as being waterproofed due to it. Whilst they do love adding propolis to good hard surfaces anything soft/wet/rotting is often left and not stable enough for them to add anything!

 

[Garry R]

What is the natural home?? For the last 3 years I have set out a bait hive at ground level and have had it occupied by a swarm at the end of May (isolated/quarantined for 5 weeks ) which has gone on to give me a super of honey by the middle of August, Interesting thing is that the bees have selected not a wooden hive but a poly hive so not what one would regard as "natural". Hey, but the bees chose it for whatever reason - warm?, right volume? correct humidity? no damp? correct height (for these bees)? Any suggestions? All three colonies have overwintered successfully subsequently.

 

[Anduril]

Having been into many tree cavities and whilst seeing some truly amazing worn and propolised wood I don’t think I’d ever describe any as being waterproofed due to it. Whilst they do love adding propolis to good hard surfaces anything soft/wet/rotting is often left and not stable enough for them to add anything!

In essence we have noticed different scenarios. It all depends on the state of the tree.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It was left behind long long ago!
If I was a mod I'd be closing this now.

You can have my job if you want

 

[user 6228]

I had this really interesting discussion with an Arborist at the Totnes convention about how the wood surrounding a bee occupied hollows is not wet like cut wood, he found it was drier and he had seen the delignified foam like layer under the propolis. This concurs with tree nest sections I have inspected. Both the hollow forming fungus and the bees change the cavity. The presence of condensate in the bottom of the nest is going to be almost constant, the real issue is whether they can control the humidity with ease further up is key. propolis will act as a vapour retarding layer.
From a well known paper on subject:
"water content is a considerable factor in determining the λ value. If we assume the water content and density are the same as freshly felled wood, then λ may be twice as large as the values used . The action ofthe honeybees in supplying drying heat to the wood surrounding the cavity, the decayed condition of the inner layers of the wood providing an air-filled foam and the presence of bark and cambium decrease λ. Therefore, further work is needed to determine a distribution ofλ to a higher confidence."

 

[user 6228]

I made the point earlier that few trees are dry. If you'd done as much forestry work as I have you'd realise that.

A story I've told before: I used to collect swarms from a colony low in the broken stem of a living apple tree, the opening being roughly as big as the space occupied by comb. It was a few hundred yards from the north sea coast (though protected from direct wind by a garden fence).

A poly hive it wasn't. And yet I collected one or two good size swarms most years for 5 or 6 years.

Throughout evolution bees have lived where they can get away with it, from the equator to - well I don't know where. A lot of of the time hereabouts anyway that has been about a hundred times lower thermal protection than a poly hive I should think.

What I'm trying to say (for the second time) is: I think you are very wrong to make your assumption.

PS

Single datum is not proof. I suggest Seeley, T. D., & Morse, R. A. (1978). Nest site selection by the honey bee, Apis mellifera. Insectes Sociaux, 25(4), 323–337. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02224297

 

[Beesnaturally]

Every time I run a chainsaw through a trunk or branch I see how wet it is. Every time I pick up a log I feel how wet it is. I've probably done that 10,000 times in my lifetime. When I used to plank and dry timber I used to measure how wet it is.

Dead trees do dry standing up, and yes there were probably a lot more of those about through the bees evolutionary history. But as we know they are perfectly happy in living, wet trees, and wouldn't turn down a wet cavity if they'd prefer a dry one, given the dry ones are occupied.

Some deep hollows in dead trees might make lovely homes. But I doubt the average bee home through its evolutionary history was as good a a well roofed cedar hive.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I tried to take a colony from a well decayed cavity last year. It was run through with tunnels about 2/2" in diameter, and had two entrances. No chance of getting them out.

The rotted wood was bone dry, but it was the middle of the hottest driest summer on record. Whether it would stay dry in rainy water would depend entirely on the routes the water took down the trunk, and how much the water would move through the denatured wood.

The main entrance was large (where a bough had torn off) and so the cavity was very drafty - esp. at twenty feet in the air.

With all that air changing going on I struggle to see what value a highly insulating wall would have. It would be like being in a celotex room with the doors and windows permanently open.

Trying to calculate things in the face of gross variation of this sort is pretty futile imo

 

[Beesnaturally]

Single datum is not proof. I suggest Seeley, T. D., & Morse, R. A. (1978). Nest site selection by the honey bee, Apis mellifera. Insectes Sociaux, 25(4), 323–337. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF02224297

single datum? What single datum?

What does the paper have to say on this specific issue?