The National Uncapper

[wightbees]

I’m following this with interest. I have looked at a few options for next year including blades, brush and now this. I ended up with a honey plain thingy from the last time I was looking. But definitely need something more now.
My Question is has anyone used the brush compared to this roller?

 

[MartinBee]

1 What is the practical difference, if the frames are the same size?
2 How did you attach the uncapper to the support frame? I can see the frame is clamped to the base unit, but how did you attach the uncapper to the frame?

Eric, i'm not completely sure i have interpreted your question correctly but:

1. the Uncapper has two M6 threaded fixing points on its underside. We use them to fix to the optional box / tray we supply. Many of you will have no need for our box, so you can use the fixing points to secure it down to whatever set up you are working with. The Uncapper does need to be held or fixed down, as the uplift force when pulling frames out will otherwise lift it up.
2. Frames of differing depths require different amounts of "airspace" below the uncapper, adjust as you need.
3. Frames that are filled out to different fullness, e.g. 11,10,9 frame supers require adjustments that we have anticipated. There is a balance to find the best setting of the minimum distance between the blades and the amount of spring force holding the spindles together. Following the recent trials (@Newbeeneil and @polymath - thank you both) we have increased the minimum spacing by 2mm and 3D printed a 2 and 3mm spacer that can be additionally simply clipped into the end mechanism for use with 9 frame supers that are proportionally thicker. We expect this to solve any excessively deep cutting issues and give you plenty of range with very little complication.
4. We deliberately use 3 O Rings to produce the spring force and create the grip to drive the rollers in sync. With @polymath we found just removing one of the 3 O Rings was enough to make a reliable uncap without cutting too deep or causing any comb deformation.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Frames that are filled out to different fullness, e.g. 11,10,9 frame supers

Thanks, Martin. If I'd had my porridge before asking, the question would have have unnecessary.

 

[polymath]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Polymath, and good to see photos of Roger at work. Did he have suggestions to improve the design? For those late to the scene, Roger Patterson is an engineer who has kept bees (at one time, professionally) for well over 50 years.

I think his summary, but he may check what i have written is he thinks he is as quick with a knife, but then he has done it for 50 years. That was his main feedback with me. As a relatively newby I do believe it saves time, expecially where you have a batch of relatively straight combs of course. As Roger saw my bottlneck moved from uncapping to extracting i.e the extractor was still going and needed to be when i had frames hanging uncapped waiting for the extractor.

What i like is the business model Martin will do which is buy or rent with option of buying in effect try before you buy. So people will get a chance to test it first.

 

[polymath]

Eric, i'm not completely sure i have interpreted your question correctly but:

1. the Uncapper has two M6 threaded fixing points on its underside. We use them to fix to the optional box / tray we supply. Many of you will have no need for our box, so you can use the fixing points to secure it down to whatever set up you are working with. The Uncapper does need to be held or fixed down, as the uplift force when pulling frames out will otherwise lift it up.
2. Frames of differing depths require different amounts of "airspace" below the uncapper, adjust as you need.
3. Frames that are filled out to different fullness, e.g. 11,10,9 frame supers require adjustments that we have anticipated. There is a balance to find the best setting of the minimum distance between the blades and the amount of spring force holding the spindles together. Following the recent trials (@Newbeeneil and @polymath - thank you both) we have increased the minimum spacing by 2mm and 3D printed a 2 and 3mm spacer that can be additionally simply clipped into the end mechanism for use with 9 frame supers that are proportionally thicker. We expect this to solve any excessively deep cutting issues and give you plenty of range with very little complication.
4. We deliberately use 3 O Rings to produce the spring force and create the grip to drive the rollers in sync. With @polymath we found just removing one of the 3 O Rings was enough to make a reliable uncap without cutting too deep or causing any comb deformation.

@Martin and just to clarify I use 9/10/11 boxes. Even on the 9 I found a single O ring did not exert enough pressure. Today I will be doing 11 frame brood boxes will report back after those.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Thanks for the detailed reply, Polymath, and good to see photos of Roger at work. Did he have suggestions to improve the design? For those late to the scene, Roger Patterson is an engineer who has kept bees (at one time, professionally) for well over 50 years.

I think it’s probably over 60 years now Eric.

 

[ericbeaumont]

bottlneck moved from uncapping to extracting

How many frames does yours hold, Polymath, and what size do you reckon would ease the congestion?

 

[beebopper]

working on that!

I think you may have made patenting impossible as you have put it out into the public domain already.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I think you may have made patenting impossible as you have put it out into the public domain already.

If I remember rightly you can't patent an invention if you have already sold one. The problem with putting it out into the public domain before patenting is that it could be copied at that time.

 

[Jimmy]

I'm not a patent attorney but I doubt a UK copy of a US product would get a patent. The US version is 5+ years old and other slit uncappers are available.
The US version has come up before Post in thread 'Which Honey Extractor - Abelo (Lyson) or Konigin?' Which Honey Extractor - Abelo (Lyson) or Konigin?

 

[Wilco]

I'm not a patent attorney but I doubt a UK copy of a US product would get a patent. The US version is 5+ years old and other slit uncappers are available.
The US version has come up before Post in thread 'Which Honey Extractor - Abelo (Lyson) or Konigin?' Which Honey Extractor - Abelo (Lyson) or Konigin?

I believe that's true unless it can be demonstrated that it's sufficiently different to the existing design. Whether being designed for National frames is sufficiently different I don't know.

 

[polymath]

How many frames does yours hold, Polymath, and what size do you reckon would ease the congestion?

9 frame electric, honestly i could run two 9 frame extractors now and still keep up with uncapping. That much difference in speed. For some frames where it was not straight the curvy ones i found as i pulled it out i could look and if it had not uncapped lean it towards that side push back down and with the honey on the rollers it grabbed it more. I reckon one in 10 frames i needed to unpick a low spot on.

 

[ericbeaumont]

two 9 frame extractors

More efficient than one 20-frame?

 

[Newbeeneil]

9 frame electric, honestly i could run two 9 frame extractors now and still keep up with uncapping. That much difference in speed. For some frames where it was not straight the curvy ones i found as i pulled it out i could look and if it had not uncapped lean it towards that side push back down and with the honey on the rollers it grabbed it more. I reckon one in 10 frames i needed to unpick a low spot on.

Thats interesting, I'm not sure if I'm fast or slow but I timed my extraction today as I had a few supers to clear from a couple of small apiaries.
I found I could uncap with a knife and load my 12 frame in 5mins giving me nice strait combs and any brace comb on the top and bottom bars removed.
I then uncapped another 12 and set about sorting the buckets etc ready for the honey. It worked out the the spinning took on average 14 mins from loading the 1st 12 to loading the second. Any time I wasn't uncapping I was washing buckets, coase fillering, filling buckets, writing labels and wiping down surfaces.
I walked into my extraction room at 0930 and walked out after extracting 90lb+ from 51 frames at 1103 having cleaned everything down ready for my next small extraction on Friday.
That works out at about 60lb/hour which is exactly the rate I charge my clients for extraction so I'm happy with that and its a pace at which I can enjoy a pain in the arse job.
Is that fast or slow... I'd love to know.

 

[Amari]

Thats interesting, I'm not sure if I'm fast or slow but I timed my extraction today as I had a few supers to clear from a couple of small apiaries.
I found I could uncap with a knife and load my 12 frame in 5mins giving me nice strait combs and any brace comb on the top and bottom bars removed.
I then uncapped another 12 and set about sorting the buckets etc ready for the honey. It worked out the the spinning took on average 14 mins from loading the 1st 12 to loading the second. Any time I wasn't uncapping I was washing buckets, coase fillering, filling buckets, writing labels and wiping down surfaces.
I walked into my extraction room at 0930 and walked out after extracting 90lb+ from 51 frames at 1103 having cleaned everything down ready for my next small extraction on Friday.
That works out at about 60lb/hour which is exactly the rate I charge my clients for extraction so I'm happy with that and its a pace at which I can enjoy a pain in the arse job.
Is that fast or slow... I'd love to know.

About six times faster than my recent extraction of eight supers - knife on old combs, heat gun on newer combs. However this was in our kitchen so extractor, tank, tray etc had to be brought in from shed, quick clean, extract, clean all kit as this was the last extraction of the season, return kit to shed. Oh to have a separate extraction room.....

 

[user 819]

Takes me a 1.5 - 2 hrs to to do two supers but then again I have no time limits so no need to rush. Once I have the extractor balanced and it is up to full speed I will leave it to happily to do so for 5 - 10 mins whilst I clear off and do other small chores.
Manual uncapping knife and DC electric 9F extractor .
I get approx. 54 - 64lbs from two supers on 10F spacing.

 

[drex]

I have a drill driven extractor. I have had to stand and hold the trigger. Over winter I bought a speed controller, have cable tied the trigger to max, and a trial run went well. Looking forward to being able to leave it to spin while I uncap.

 

[user 819]

Best mod I did was converting to 36v DC power, second best may be the beevac when I give it it's first real world swarm collection tomorrow. 12v lions & lipo's on charge as I type.

 

[polymath]

More efficient than one 20-frame?

bottom line is space to store it or even anything more.

 

[Amari]

. Once I have the extractor balanced and it is up to full speed I will leave it to happily to do so for 5 - 10 mins whilst I clear off and do other small chores.

I get approx. 54 - 64lbs from two supers on 10F spacing.

How do you get it balanced if the outfit wobbles - just trial and error by altering the positions of the frames? Tedious and doesn't always work!
30lbs per super - from standard National frames?!! Twice my average yield, maybe I don't spin fast enough (9F radial). Not to worry, the wet frames are returned to the hives.