The black bee

[Poly Hive]

BDaddy.

Yes I am serious.

He was a novice monk at 16 when the so called Isle of Weight Disease was on going.

I have no wish to sound superior but his Abbot certainly was. To him that is.

How do you think he knew what was going on ACROSS the Uk at that point of tine given the lack of communications at the time.

I read you are a BA fan but for goodness sake think about it.

If you want a hands off discussion pm me.

He did AMM no favours at all in his ignorance.

PH

 

[BDaddy]

Yes I am serious. He was a novice monk at 16 when the so called Isle of Weight Disease was on going.

I fail to see why being a 16yr old novice precludes him from being capable of making a valid contribution. I suspect such a notion would not be received well by other 16yr olds today.

I have no wish to sound superior but his Abbot certainly was. To him that is.

This is an interesting comment in that, BA’s Abbot made the following statement “I know of no better beekeeper and breeder than Brother Adam”. Additionally Professor Armbruster made the following remark “In the whole history of beekeeping BA holds a very special place of honour”

How do you think he knew what was going on ACROSS the Uk at that point of tine given the lack of communications at the time.

At that point in time the telephone and radio were being used. He may have even wrote a letter or two.

I read you are a BA fan but for goodness sake think about it.

You’ve made an assumption here. I’ll let you into a secret. I’m not a “fan” of BA in the sense you mean it. In fact I’ve never read a single word he wrote! What I have done, is read the many references made to him by many other learned individuals. Like it or not, BA is held in very high esteem by a significant number of highly respected individuals. As a result of this debate, I am keen to know a lot more about this chap so have just ordered all of his most important works.

If you want a hands off discussion pm me.

Thanks for the offer but I’d prefer to continue the debate in an open forum. That way “we” get the benefit of the potential for everyone to express an opinion.

He did AMM no favours at all in his ignorance.

You have made this comment before. I invite you to expand and justify such a sweeping statement. If you have a valid argument to substantiate your opinion, I would really like to hear it. If not, then making such a statement serves no other useful purpose other than to contradict anything another person says, which in my opinion is rather pointless not to mention being a vector for misinformation.
I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Regards
BD

 

[hedgerow pete]

this thread is starting to get well silly considering the first question.

since i have been away working i was sad enough to read the whole thread the other night and to finaly add my last ten pence.

yes I am planning on replacing all my 4 queens with the £85 ai amm, but when i can afford it , being ub40 does tighten ones belt A LOT

no i did not know that my bees had any carni in them but it does not matter as it was there performance and workablity that made me buy them not what they were , now that the money might be able to appear and the queen are ok then i will change them all, and i have NEVER EVER described them as amm but only dark european as i have never had any proof they were amm so i have never proclaimed they were

why do i go on about amm instead of other bees or why i dislike carni's, simple I am a cantankerous git that just does.

love to all hedgerow

 

[Norton]

He was a novice monk at 16 when the so called Isle of Wight Disease was on going.

That maybe so, but he upheld this view right to the very end at the age of 98 and had decades to correct an error if he thought that he had made a mistake.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[Poly Hive]

I know he did Norton but a great deal of people many far more expert than I am held the view that he was mistaken, and oddly the further north you travel the more this view is held as IOW was not so prevalent there.

In fact one person who was not so impressed was Mr Wood of Banchory. And he was the gent who is named for giving the money to Craibstone to do the research which found Acarine. To the tune of £6000.

As for BA being well respected and lauded world wide yes he was. Probably rightly so but I have to wonder if he had put the same effort into AMM where we might be in the UK today.

But he didn't and it is now all rather murky.

PH

 

[Norton]

As for BA being well respected and lauded world wide yes he was. Probably rightly so but I have to wonder if he had put the same effort into AMM where we might be in the UK today.

Hello,
If he had concentrated his efforts upon AMM he would have been restricted by the possibilities available to him in the genetic make-up of the ssp. Every stable population of bees, strain or ssp has good and bad points, these are well-known to many and need not be repeated here. The theory (thought) behind the development of the Buckfast Bee was to take the desirable points from the various populations available, fix them and incorporate them into the main Buckfast strain and continue the breeding by using a closed population breeding system with the addition of other genetic material after suitable testing and selection. It worked!

AMM was used twice during the breeding of the main Buckfast strain, first in the original crosses and later crosses were made with French AMM. BA was very enthusiastic about the vigour for honey collection that the French material injected into his lines. Recent crosses have also been made with Galtee Group material (AMM) in an attempt to re-vamp the hybrid line vigour.

Pure breeding has a place in bee breeding and you shouldn't think for a second that us Buckfast breeders are against it - we rely upon it to provide us with material that has good characteristics to include in our strain. We detest people making comments about Buckfast bees that are misinformed /inaccurate which seem to be based upon preconceived misconceptions and even deliberate acts of misinformation at times by people who should actually know and act better. The mere mention of the word "Buckfast" can bring about foaming at the mouth and much verbal abuse which we as Buckfast beekeepers just cannot understand.
All pure breeding programs have two major hurdles:
1. Inbreeding eventually becomes a problem and the only way to rectify the situation is to cross the strain with something that is not related. If this is not done the strain will collapse in time.
2. If some character is weak or non-existent, then the only way to obtain it is to cross the strain with some other strain that already has the desirable in it.

Sue Cobey, the creator of the NWC strain, has seen this problem has had to get special permission to import semen from Europe and Turkey to try to find a solution.

Do you really think that BA endured all the problems and hardships, and many they were, traveling to obtain genetic material for kicks? Do you think that this man who had devoted himself to God and breeding a better bee was on some sort of ego trip? The answer is, of course, NO! - he was in charge of the Buckfast apiary, they had problems and he set about trying to solve those problems. That the rest of us managed to get access to that priceless genetic material is just on off-shoot.

BA rest in peace.

Best regards
Norton.

 

[Finman]

.
Strange talking!

Englishmen brought to many continent the first bees and they were German Black. Now, they are kept nowere in big scale.

Brother Adam may be a great beekeeper in England but so are other beekeepers in each country.

Nowadays there are many strains and crossings in the world. Who knows what they are.

Professional beebreeders have their own way to get new blood into their yards. Like one just told, he has Chinese Italians, Egyptian, American Russian and what ever. That man loves to trye new breeds.

.

 

[Poly Hive]

I have no argument with any of that Norton and no doubt you know a lot more about it than I do.

However I do, as do more than a few, dispute that what he said about the IOW situation was correct as he was just not in a position, located in Devon as he was, and a novice as he was and thus severely restricted in movement and communications, to make the statement that he did.

It just was not true. That is what gets me going as you can tell.

I was busy breeding, or trying to, an seemingly extinct bee. Rubbish. IN my old stomping grounds of Aberdeenshire, and Kincardinshire which marches with the southern border of Aberdeenshire if you don't know, then AMM was wide spread. As far as I know it still is.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

I very much like the buckfast strain, very greatful to BA for breeding such a wonderful strain of bee.
Chatting with Murray a few days ago on the phone, and he said the AMM was very diluted up north now in most places,maybe a bit of AMM from many generations ago,but more likely to be Carni,and suggested a place in Cornwall for obtaining AMM.
Hope they don't interbreed with the local buckfast strains to much,and make them prone to acarine,athough there are no doubt a few traits that could still be used .

 

[darrenperrett]

The Nucs I bought last year had Buckfast Queens and they seem very good. Can`t say i`ve noticed a problem with propolis, but then again, I`ve nothing to compare them with.

Darren.

 

[Richard Bache]

I have to say this constant attack on Brother Adam, who after all cannot answer is critics now is most distasteful. Yes he was young when IoW disease decimated the stocks at Buckfast and yes he did not check every colony in the UK for its pedigree. However, the argument that he was born wrong ignores the fact that many other beekeepers from accross the country were reporting significant losses on account of Isle of Wight disease.

I am intrigued by the comments that there were large parts of the country that were not affected: I would be grateful if they could be named.

 

[Poly Hive]

I for one have a big problem with BA and his assertions that IOW disease affected every part of the country and that it killed off the native black bee.

He was as I have mentioned before merely a 16 year old novice at the time. Hardly in a position intellectually or physically able to have this knowledge. Novices are not famed for wondering about the countryside, they are too busy being trained.

Many stocks were lost at the time. The winters were at the time very poor too and as now it is so easy to say oh the Varroa got my bees as it was then to say oh it was the IOW that got my bees and not have to admit to not feeding properly or what ever.

PH

 

[Richard Bache]

yes, I do not doubt that there was more than one cause for the Isle of Wight disease, and I use that term for convenience rather than to ascribe any single causation. Indeed, this was also Bailey's view and the view of many contemporary beekeepers. But you have completely missed the point that it was not just Brother Adam saying this, and many of the other beekeepers from accross the country who were reporting the same, long before brother Adam came to the fore, were of considerable experience. In fact Brother Adam was not known to the rest of the country at this time.

 

[Blodwen Price]

part of the issue with Brother Adam is this "deification", as if it is somehow heresy to even question him. The fact of him not being alive to answer critics is neither here nor there, if someone has a valid, or at least genuinely held, criticism they should not be suppressed just because BA is no longer with us.

 

[Poly Hive]

I didn't miss the point at all.

BA was mentioned and I replied on that issue, and that issue alone.

It is (or so I am taught) Acarine that was the culprit at the end of the day or it is the agreed culprit. And I was taught on the premises where the research was done and the discovery made. 1921 from memory.

I have handled the original slides for what that is worth.

PH

 

[andypigeon]

i got a hive from a chap last year and the bees in it are jet black, some have not got any yellow bands on i dont know what sort they are but he said that he had been breading them for 30 years. any one know of jet black bees. i looked at the photos of the AMM and mine are a lot darker

 

[Richard Bache]

It is (or so I am taught) Acarine that was the culprit at the end of the day or it is the agreed culprit. And I was taught on the premises where the research was done and the discovery made. 1921 from memory.

Perhaps it had some role (having read the papers presented by Rennie et al, the discoverers of Acarapis woodi). Have you read the works of Leslie Bailey on the subject of Isle of Wight disease: I think you will find it quite enlightening, especially when viewed against contemporary accounts of the Isle of Wight disease.

Blowden,
just to clarify I am not in any way deifying Brother Adam: I certainly disagree with some of the things he has written in his books. However, you too are missing my point that it seems a little unjust, perhaps distasteful, to maintain this constant attack on one person, pretending that only he believed it, whilst ignoring the fact that his contemporaries and predecessors were, for the most part, saying exactly the same thing.

 

[Poly Hive]

Have I read Bailey? No. Nor am I going to as it all happened a very long time ago.

I am far more concerned with what is happening these days and how we are gearing up to cope with another century of making the same old same old mistakes.

I am probably erroneous but I am seeing troll like symptoms on what was a thread concerning the native bee. Which is very much alive and well.

PH

 

[Polyanwood]

I captured a swarm of dark bees last week. The queen is very black, no sign of banding. I'll see if I can take a photo and post it at the weekend so those of you who love the black bee can admire her.

She is laying. We'll see if she is any good later in the year!

 

[Crg]

I am probably erroneous but I am seeing troll like symptoms on what was a thread concerning the native bee. Which is very much alive and well.

I've only seen evidence that it's alive and well in very few places, and in my view it's probably as much threatened by people breeding by phenotype rather than genotype, or people importing AMM queens from other countries with no research into their genetic background.