Tearing down Q cells question

[Eddie_H]

If in the process of tearing down Queen cells , a Virgin Queen escaped out onto the frame (and you lost her in the crowd):

1. Would she be accepted or killed by the workers?

2. Would she actually be a fully matured Queen , able to mate and lay ( if she hadn’t he hadn’t actually gone full-term in the QC, for want of a better term) ?

 

[pargyle]

If in the process of tearing down Queen cells , a Virgin Queen escaped out onto the frame (and you lost her in the crowd):

1. Would she be accepted or killed by the workers?

2. Would she actually be a fully matured Queen , able to mate and lay ( if she hadn’t he hadn’t actually gone full-term in the QC, for want of a better term) ?

I think it begs a few other questions ...

If you have swarm cells that are capped have you STILL got the original queen in the hive ... odds are she would have already gone at this stage.

If she hasn't and they are intent on swarming why didn't you do an Artificial swarm ? Tearing queen cells down usually makes matters worse not better.

Will they kill a virgin ? ... probably not .. more likely the existing queen will be off with a swarm if she hasn't already gone.

If the virgin was up to running away from you the odds are that she was full term anyway ... do you have any idea of the age of the queen cells ?

Are there any fresh eggs in the cells ? If not .. let's hope the virgin you released gets mated ...

 

[Eddie_H]

I think it begs a few other questions ...

If you have swarm cells that are capped have you STILL got the original queen in the hive ... odds are she would have already gone at this stage.

If she hasn't and they are intent on swarming why didn't you do an Artificial swarm ? Tearing queen cells down usually makes matters worse not better.

Will they kill a virgin ? ... probably not .. more likely the existing queen will be off with a swarm if she hasn't already gone.

If the virgin was up to running away from you the odds are that she was full term anyway ... do you have any idea of the age of the queen cells ?

Are there any fresh eggs in the cells ? If not .. let's hope the virgin you released gets mated ...

Oh right,well ill explain.......

Q was in hive, but missed one QC. Obviously original Q swarmed.

Went in today,QC opened, has been 3/4 days by my calculations . Didn’t spot her though. No eggs.

Found another sealed QC though,so tore it down as the recently emerged Q should be out getting mated around now. Could see Q in QC when I tore it down. Just wondered what would have happened if she had got loose. Was just asking hypothetically, should have explained that .

Anyway,the newly emerged Q (3/4 days) wouldn’t have swarmed when the later QC sealed, would it? I assume since she probably wouldn’t have been mated at time of it being sealed, she wouldn’t have flown?

 

[pargyle]

Oh right,well ill explain.......

Q was in hive, but missed one QC. Obviously original Q swarmed.

Went in today,QC opened, has been 3/4 days by my calculations . Didn’t spot her though. No eggs.

Found another sealed QC though,so tore it down as the recently emerged Q should be out getting mated around now. Could see Q in QC when I tore it down. Just wondered what would have happened if she had got loose. Was just asking hypothetically, should have explained that .

Anyway,the newly emerged Q (3/4 days) wouldn’t have swarmed when the later QC sealed, would it? I assume since she probably wouldn’t have been mated at time of it being sealed, she wouldn’t have flown?

Virgins can and do swarm ... the first one after the prime swarm is a caste and it will be headed up by a virgin .. she will go on her mating flight from her new home ..

In the instance you now describe you probably did the right thing by tearing it down ...but .. did you miss seeing the second queen cell when you saw the first after they had swarmed with the old queen ?...

It is possible that the virgin that emerged from the first queen cell has swarmed .. in which case ... you now have a hopelessly queenless colony as they have no eggs to make a new queen !

If you are not sure you have a virgin queen in there (have you seen her ?) then it might be wise to put a test frame with eggs in there and see if they build another queen cell.

You should never knock down all queen cells unless you are sure you have a queen (mated or virgin) in the colony.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Best thing to do if the original queen has gone and you have mature QC's - open each and every one, leave the queens out and let them battle it out

 

[Erichalfbee]

Best thing to do if the original queen has gone and you have mature QC's - open each and every one, leave the queens out and let them battle it out

Yes. Every one.
The bees will sort it
Have a look here.
Read every bit
http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

 

[Poly Hive]

In my experience, sealed cells are not an indicator that the swarm has gone. Found the old queen many times in that situation.

PH

 

[Eddie_H]

Virgins can and do swarm ... the first one after the prime swarm is a caste and it will be headed up by a virgin .. she will go on her mating flight from her new home ..

In the instance you now describe you probably did the right thing by tearing it down ...but .. did you miss seeing the second queen cell when you saw the first after they had swarmed with the old queen ?...

It is possible that the virgin that emerged from the first queen cell has swarmed .. in which case ... you now have a hopelessly queenless colony as they have no eggs to make a new queen !

If you are not sure you have a virgin queen in there (have you seen her ?) then it might be wise to put a test frame with eggs in there and see if they build another queen cell.

You should never knock down all queen cells unless you are sure you have a queen (mated or virgin) in the colony.

Yes I think I may have missed the second QC..

I do have a nuc box, with a newly emerged Q in it. Not laying yet. will monitor that,and see what my options are

 

[Eddie_H]

In my experience, sealed cells are not an indicator that the swarm has gone. Found the old queen many times in that situation.

PH

I hope that’s is the Case here..

 

[Millet]

In my experience, sealed cells are not an indicator that the swarm has gone. Found the old queen many times in that situation.

PH

Hows this for a conundrum..i went through a old fellows hive today that swarmed six weeks ago..
He and another could not find the Queen... i went through the hive today and found the old Queen straight away..one faint blue dot give the game away..
To me the hive swarmed with a virgin and left the old Queen behind.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Hows this for a conundrum..i went through a old fellows hive today that swarmed six weeks ago..
He and another could not find the Queen... i went through the hive today and found the old Queen straight away..one faint blue dot give the game away..
To me the hive swarmed with a virgin and left the old Queen behind.

Are you sure it swarmed though...

 

[pargyle]

Are you sure it swarmed though...

Yes... that would be my thinking ... unless they actually saw and caught the swarm with the old queen ... which, if she's still there ... could not have done.

But .. we should not be hijacking Eddie's thread ... bad form.

 

[SWEET]

In my experience, sealed cells are not an indicator that the swarm has gone. Found the old queen many times in that situation.

PH

Same, I've now a couple of fresh Nuc's with new queens and the old queen/hives are doing well.

I'd imagine the timing is critical tho (and in my case luck).

 

[Poly Hive]

As Mobus so very wisely said:

Bees do nothing invariably!

PH

 

[beeno]

Oh right,well ill explain.......
Anyway,the newly emerged Q (3/4 days) wouldn’t have swarmed when the later QC sealed, would it? I assume since she probably wouldn’t have been mated at time of it being sealed, she wouldn’t have flown?

They could either have fought or one of them swarmed depending on circumstances. What usually happens is that she will killed the virgin queen still in the cell though.

 

[Millet]

Are you sure it swarmed though...

Yes but not 100% as i was not there in person..i did get a phone call as the said colony was swarming in front of the old fellow and his wife..the bees spewed out of the hive and clustered into a pear tree in the garden..it was too high in the tree for him to retrieve so he had to leave it.

 

[birdsandbees]

Best thing to do if the original queen has gone and you have mature QC's - open each and every one, leave the queens out and let them battle it out

But surely they wouldn't just fight it out would they? The bees hearing more than one Virgin would Caste a swarm as that usually what happens post Prime swarm?

I'm not taking the Pee, genuinely questioning my understanding of swarm events.

 

[Erichalfbee]

But surely they wouldn't just fight it out would they? The bees hearing more than one Virgin would Caste a swarm as that usually what happens post Prime swarm?

I'm not taking the Pee, genuinely questioning my understanding of swarm events.

Springing all the virgins leads to much confusion
The new queens don’t all fight it out or swarm.
The bees sort it out leaving one hopefully.

Step 7 page 16
http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As Mobus so very wisely said:

Bees do nothing invariably!

PH

He was actually quoting Manley from 'Beekeeping in Britain', who very honestly attributed the saying to a lady beekeeper who regularly wrote in the beekeeper's monthly way back in the 1920's, unfortunately Manley never mentioned her name

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The bees hearing more than one Virgin would Caste a swarm as that usually what happens post Prime swarm?

No, what usually happens post prime swarm is that the workers guard all the queen cells, releasing them as and when they are ready to swarm again, releasing them all at the same time causes confusion, so they fight it out and deal with any QC's you have missed.