swarming - can you figure this out?

[nessieb]

At the start of the season I had 4 hives. 1 had a 2010 queen in it and the others were all 2011 queens.

At an inspection mid May hives 3 and 4 had swarmed, they didn't have many bees left and previously were very strong double brooded colonies, also they'd taken honey with them. So, went through all the brood boxes with a friend and reduced the QC's to 2 (for sure), the other hives were behaving. I had expected this as couldn't examine them for about three weeks prior to this day due to awful weather. I planned to leave these hives alone for 3 weeks

About a week later we had a smaller swarm at the top of a tree in the apiary - couldn't get it so left it there, not really sure where it came from.
On 27th May Hive 2 had charged QC's so at the recommendation of a very experienced beekeeper I took the Queen out and put her into a nuc, reduced QC's to 2. Planned to leave alone for 3 weeks
On 4th June hive 1 was at the same stage so did the same process as I did with hive 2 and took Queen out.

I thought that giving them plenty of room (double brood), supering early and having new queens may have stopped them all swarming.

Went yesterday purely to check if hives 1 and 2 had enough supers and was surprised to see 2 massive swarms on neighbouring concrete posts in the Apiary. Decided I better see where they came from. My first thought was that taking Q out hadn't worked. Had a brief look at both hives 1 and 2 (did not go into brood boxes as did not want to disturb just looked from above QE) and nucs, all were fine still FULL of bees, hives needing another super each.

Hives 3 and 4 hadn't really changed much from the last examination but I didn't think there were enough bees in these hives to produce such huge swarms. However, I didn't want to disturb them too much but did see a sealed QC in hive 3. One of the swarms had at least 2 virgin queens in it so was a cast.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Have I got a strain of bee with a swarming tendancy? Bearing in mind that last year the original 2010 queen gave me my other three colonies (and a honey crop). I know I'm new so will inevitably make mistakes but I dont know how I learn from this. Whats going on? The queens in hives 1 and 2 I imagine will be hatching this coming week

 

[Polyanwood]

It is hard to say what has happened. You say the swarm is not from hive 3 or 4 or from the nucs, which means it is from hive 1 or 2, but you didn't look inside the brood nest. I would look in there urgently. You could lose cast swarms next time the sun shines otherwise.

 

[Black Comb]

Firstly leaving 2 cells is a not good idea. They Often swarm when the first virgin emerges. Whoever first thought of this needs to re-think.
Secondly when a colony has swarmed and you inspect it is v difficult to tell that you have fewer bees. There appears to be just as many, even though a lot have gone. They leave about 25,000 bees behind.

 

[nessieb]

It is hard to say what has happened. You say the swarm is not from hive 3 or 4 or from the nucs, which means it is from hive 1 or 2, but you didn't look inside the brood nest. I would look in there urgently. You could lose cast swarms next time the sun shines otherwise.

No I thought hives 1 and 2 were still OK as they still had their whole honey crop on board, supers and brood boxes all full of bees

 

[nessieb]

Firstly leaving 2 cells is a not good idea. They Often swarm when the first virgin emerges. Whoever first thought of this needs to re-think.
Secondly when a colony has swarmed and you inspect it is v difficult to tell that you have fewer bees. There appears to be just as many, even though a lot have gone. They leave about 25,000 bees behind.

OK then, thank you. I'm pretty sure they were still there though? Perhaps I'll try leaving 1 cell next time. Have you ever been left queenless with this method?

 

[Black Comb]

In my second year I left 2 cells in several hives and they all swarmed. Never again.

 

[nessieb]

Well maybe thats the reason I never seem to get on top of it then I will try leaving 1 cell next time. Looks like it might be a honey-less year, they'll probably eat what they've made. I gave the swarms to friends due to lack of equipment and space. Never mind - live and learn

WHY though do so many experienced beekeepers say to leave 2 !?????

 

[Poly Hive]

Because they have been parroting rubbish by people who learnt parroted rubbish and until now when it is possible to hit a resource like this and learn from some with rather more experience that has been the situation.

To fine tune.

Please have confidence in leaving one OPEN cell. Remove the rest and take of a nuc at the same time to act as an insurance. Why an open cell? So you care sure it contains a grub. A sealed cell can actually be an emerged cell resealsed by the bees... their little joke...

How precious do you think the colony considers that one chance at their survival? They will look after it....

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

WHY though do so many experienced beekeepers say to leave 2 !?????

Because if one fails (after only leaving the one).....

If you have only the one colony, leave two. The A/S system was refined to avoid a cast (the extra hive move) and many only find their colonies have swarmed when all the decent cells are already capped. The better way with an A/S is to take a split as back-up or for further increase.

If one has enough colonies and were commercial, the beek likely doesn't leave any cells - they just replace the old queen with a new laying queen. They would rarely get to the stage of losing a swarm, anyway; that is like throwing away money.

 

[nessieb]

Well I do have two insurance nucs both doing well.
Should one of the hives go queenless due to casts and I need to combine...
Would I move the queenless hive to the queen right nuc or the queen right nuc to the queenless hive (in the same apiary).
Hopefully the casting situation wont mean I'm left with small scrubby queens.

The next time i'm faced with charged cells I'll leave 1.

 

[Poly Hive]

Rab and I will have to disagree on this one. Leaving two is in my book the wrong thing to do, esp if sealed.

However there you are: two ways of doing it each with their respective risks.

PH

 

[Polyanwood]

No I thought hives 1 and 2 were still OK as they still had their whole honey crop on board, supers and brood boxes all full of bees

The swarm came from somewhere. With respect, honey in the supers is not diagnostic of there not having been a swarm from a hive, and neither is there still appearing to be still a lot of bees.
Unless you can definitely identify where the swarm came from, you are most likely to have more.

Have you examined every inch of comb looking for queen cells?

 

[oliver90owner]

I don't leave two. I only gave the reason for doing so - as per Padgen. But I don't just have the one colony. I know not to shake frames with sealed cells, etc etc. There are those out there that need the insurance.

If I were to get a dud, it would not worry me unduly. I take a split or more if the queen has good traits. Not all queens are of a similar disposition to their mother and if re-uniting for the younger queen later, it helps to have a choice. So lots of things to consider. I decide what I am going to do in each particular case. It also might depend when they become swarmy as to how I might deal with the problem. There comes a point when any new bees will not make any addition to the honey crop, just be a drain. And now thoughts on year-end sorting out for winter will soon come into the equation.

It may not happen often that the cell left does not mature but I would not want the blame from any green beek for the reasonable or unreasonsble loss of that queen.