Swarm, no brood, virgin, wha'?

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JonnyPicklechin

Field Bee
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
533
Reaction score
37
Location
Isleworth
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
20 odd
First inspection of a packed hive 2-3 weeks ago, huge activity, tons of sealed and OB. Then the weather came and there was no inspection. I was planning Monday, yesterday.

Then whilst fixing bikes in the garden, a swarm, I watched it initiate. I even waited quizzically at the entrance to see if I could see the queen. I had seen her at the previous inspection, a blue, clipped queen. I was relaxed as was expecting them to fall somewhere as the queen's attempted aeronautics came to nothing, but was surprised when the swirling mass alighted on a camellia 15 feet from the hive. I have since collected the cluster and rehoused it, a caste swarm size covering about 3 frames in the NUC.

I wondered then what had happened. I had not seen any QCs in the hive 2 weeks ago. I have not yet looked into the captured swarm figuring I need to let it settle down a bit, obviously itching to look for whatever queen they have, but expecting a fleet footed virgin.

The strangest thing is that going into the original hive I was expecting to see some sealed brood. I know a laying queen goes off lay before the swarm but I am scratching my head given that this was not a prime swarm, the queen was clipped and there is no real sign of any brood. Finally, I did not see any opened, spent, queen cells. To be honest I did not spend a great deal of time looking so there may very well be one or two there... Had she been superseded? If so, why the swarm? Co-incidence that a supersedure and swarm can happen at the same time?

Could anyone can shed any light.
 
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Have you interupted an orientation flight of a virgin queen? Often a lot of bees initially go out with her and then return back to the colony - how long after they emerged did you collect them?
 
They overnighted on the camellia, that's not a virgin flight!
 
I've got something similar. Two hives had brood, now none. They seem happy, at the moment I'm assuming they are off lay - can't see them swarming now. I'll check next week, lend them a frame of eggs, if they try and raise queens I'll unite.

Can't see any queens getting mated this time of year.
 
First inspection of a packed hive 2-3 weeks ago, huge activity, tons of sealed and OB. Then the weather came and there was no inspection. I was planning Monday, yesterday.

Then whilst fixing bikes in the garden, a swarm, I watched it initiate. I even waited quizzically at the entrance to see if I could see the queen. I had seen her at the previous inspection, a blue, clipped queen. I was relaxed as was expecting them to fall somewhere as the queen's attempted aeronautics came to nothing, but was surprised when the swirling mass alighted on a camellia 15 feet from the hive. I have since collected the cluster and rehoused it, a caste swarm size covering about 3 frames in the NUC.

I wondered then what had happened. I had not seen any QCs in the hive 2 weeks ago. I have not yet looked into the captured swarm figuring I need to let it settle down a bit, obviously itching to look for whatever queen they have, but expecting a fleet footed virgin.

The strangest thing is that going into the original hive I was expecting to see some sealed brood. I know a laying queen goes off lay before the swarm but I am scratching my head given that this was not a prime swarm, the queen was clipped and there is no real sign of any brood. Finally, I did not see any opened, spent, queen cells. To be honest I did not spend a great deal of time looking so there may very well be one or two there... Had she been superseded? If so, why the swarm? Co-incidence that a supersedure and swarm can happen at the same time?

Could anyone can shed any light.
I reckon you have 'missed' something, will be interesting to discover which queen is in the "swarm" and which is in the hive.
 
Thanks Murox for getting back on topic. Seems there is a missing clue in this. I'll check the swarm today and see if I can see a queen.

I think ill get a frame of eggs in the original also and see if they start to make an emergency QC. I suppose a question to experts might be have they ever experienced colony swarm and leave no queen or QCs?
 
Sometimes bees abscond but then they leave nothing behind except a few dead bees.
 
First inspection of a packed hive 2-3 weeks ago, huge activity, tons of sealed and OB. Then the weather came and there was no inspection. I was planning Monday, yesterday.

Then whilst fixing bikes in the garden, a swarm, I watched it initiate. I even waited quizzically at the entrance to see if I could see the queen. I had seen her at the previous inspection, a blue, clipped queen. I was relaxed as was expecting them to fall somewhere as the queen's attempted aeronautics came to nothing, but was surprised when the swirling mass alighted on a camellia 15 feet from the hive. I have since collected the cluster and rehoused it, a caste swarm size covering about 3 frames in the NUC.

I wondered then what had happened. I had not seen any QCs in the hive 2 weeks ago. I have not yet looked into the captured swarm figuring I need to let it settle down a bit, obviously itching to look for whatever queen they have, but expecting a fleet footed virgin.

The strangest thing is that going into the original hive I was expecting to see some sealed brood. I know a laying queen goes off lay before the swarm but I am scratching my head given that this was not a prime swarm, the queen was clipped and there is no real sign of any brood. Finally, I did not see any opened, spent, queen cells. To be honest I did not spend a great deal of time looking so there may very well be one or two there... Had she been superseded? If so, why the swarm? Co-incidence that a supersedure and swarm can happen at the same time?

Could anyone can shed any light.
I'm thinking virgin queen with the swarm in the camellia from a supersedure cell that you missed.
Original blue marked queen still in the hive, and possibly also another virgin queen or capped supercedure cell.
 
I searched the captured swarm and sure enough saw the VQ...

I reckon you might be right about the original hive. The blue queen has probably just gone right off lay on swarm issue rules. I was thinking to look again more carefully. If I find her, remove her and put her in a NUC. I don't expect to look and find a VQ in such a busy hive.

After the blue queen search, whether positive or not, It might be a good idea to put a test frame of eggs / OB in there and see if they don't make a QC just in case it has gone weirdly queen-less, right?
 
I searched the captured swarm and sure enough saw the VQ...

I reckon you might be right about the original hive. The blue queen has probably just gone right off lay on swarm issue rules. I was thinking to look again more carefully. If I find her, remove her and put her in a NUC. I don't expect to look and find a VQ in such a busy hive.

After the blue queen search, whether positive or not, It might be a good idea to put a test frame of eggs / OB in there and see if they don't make a QC just in case it has gone weirdly queen-less, right?
I don't think it would hurt, as long as it has no disease. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a virgin in there, and you might see her anyhow.
 
So my test frame had 6 qcs on it within 24 hours...so ive added a caged mated queen.

So they swarmed with no queen left or maybe they attempted a swarm and somehow the clipped queen came back, they casted and she perished?

Another one for experience.
 
First inspection of a packed hive 2-3 weeks ago, huge activity, tons of sealed and OB. Then the weather came and there was no inspection. I was planning Monday, yesterday.

Then whilst fixing bikes in the garden, a swarm, I watched it initiate. I even waited quizzically at the entrance to see if I could see the queen. I had seen her at the previous inspection, a blue, clipped queen. I was relaxed as was expecting them to fall somewhere as the queen's attempted aeronautics came to nothing, but was surprised when the swirling mass alighted on a camellia 15 feet from the hive. I have since collected the cluster and rehoused it, a caste swarm size covering about 3 frames in the NUC.

I wondered then what had happened. I had not seen any QCs in the hive 2 weeks ago. I have not yet looked into the captured swarm figuring I need to let it settle down a bit, obviously itching to look for whatever queen they have, but expecting a fleet footed virgin.

The strangest thing is that going into the original hive I was expecting to see some sealed brood. I know a laying queen goes off lay before the swarm but I am scratching my head given that this was not a prime swarm, the queen was clipped and there is no real sign of any brood. Finally, I did not see any opened, spent, queen cells. To be honest I did not spend a great deal of time looking so there may very well be one or two there... Had she been superseded? If so, why the swarm? Co-incidence that a supersedure and swarm can happen at the same time?

Could anyone can shed any light.
Pure speculation but it could be a prime swarm that failed first time and returned when your clipped queen slumped to the ground and swarmed again with the first virgin? You sometimes get just 1 or 2 cells when they swarm. Last year one of my hives made 1 cell only and swarmed when the virgin emerged.
 
So my test frame had 6 qcs on it within 24 hours...so ive added a caged mated queen.

So they swarmed with no queen left or maybe they attempted a swarm and somehow the clipped queen came back, they casted and she perished?

Another one for experience.
Most probably they swarmed with a clipped queen, she crashed and burned into the nearby undergrowth. The swarm would then have returned to the hive, only to leave with the first virgin to emerge - thus a prime swarm headed by a virgin. It's no mystery, it's what usually happens.
Clipping a queen does not stop swarming, it just gives you a few extra days to sort out the mess with limited damage - usually to go in after they swarmed and returned (sans queen) and to remove all the queen cells bar one to ensure they don't swarm with a virgin.
 

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