Supercedure question

[Mandeville]

At what point in the process of supercedure does the old queen get eliminated?

This is the scenario ...

Smallish colony with a new queen, the result of a split done in mid-May.

Not been building up fast, but not worryingly slow either.

Today I found eggs, the marked queen, two open charged queen cells, 2 nice looking closed queen cells and three queen cells with holes in the sides being torn down.

Does this sound like supercedure??

 

[colinc]

There is a dilemma. Hard enough to make that call with the hive open in front of you. Mini disaster if you guess wrong. 7 cells is a lot for supersedure, but 3 torn down....... was the queen this years? Hatched in spring? Normally a scrub would be replaced before now and if well mated wouldn't expect supersedure. How big is the hive, how much brood and how much space?

Have you got a spare poly nuc or hive? Remove queen and form a split. Leave them to decide what they are doing with the queen cells, if they fail to raise a laying queen reunite in 3 weeks.


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[Beefriendly]

2 nice looking closed queen cells and three queen cells with holes in the sides being torn down.

Does this sound like supercedure??

Never easy to be certain. Queen cells with holes in the side suggest the queen or something is fighting back....
A thought for you? What are the varroa levels? I ask because in a few similar situations I found varroa levels to be very high. Bees were "ill" and blame queen for their predicament and so get rid. A few blasts of Apiboixal minus additives sorted it out. That is not to say she isn't a failing queen, but worth looking at.

 

[Mandeville]

She not a very robust looking queen, but she came from a decent QC. Started laying in early June.

Two weeks ago at the last check there was 2 frames full of brood and some brood on two others. It's a 14x12 WBC with plenty of space. Also a couple of supers so no shortage of stores.

A split into a nuc was what I did as a knee-jerk reaction, but I had second thoughts afterwards which is why I've posted the question.

 

[Beefriendly]

Two weeks ago at the last check there was 2 frames full of brood and some brood on two others. It's a 14x12 WBC with plenty of space. Also a couple of supers so no shortage of stores.

This a smallish colony of bees that would probably fit into a nuc that is housed inside a full WBC hive with 2 supers on top? Am I reading this right?
If so, the answer is too few bees and far far far too much space.

 

[Mandeville]

It's not small enough to fit into a nuc, but isn't big enough to fill the whole BB, I'd got them dummied down to 8 frames.

The supers were being filled before I split them originally and got left on that half. Is that the problem? Should I have taken them off? I thought leaving them would mean they could get on with raising brood without spending too much energy on foraging.

 

[Mandeville]

Never easy to be certain. Queen cells with holes in the side suggest the queen or something is fighting back....
A thought for you? What are the varroa levels? I ask because in a few similar situations I found varroa levels to be very high. Bees were "ill" and blame queen for their predicament and so get rid. A few blasts of Apiboixal minus additives sorted it out. That is not to say she isn't a failing queen, but worth looking at.

Thanks for that suggestion - I haven't checked varroa recently.

 

[Beefriendly]

It's not small enough to fit into a nuc, but isn't big enough to fill the whole BB, I'd got them dummied down to 8 frames.

The supers were being filled before the split and got left on that half. Is that the problem? Should I have taken them off? I thought leaving them would mean they could get on with raising brood without spending too much energy on foraging.

Sorry, misunderstood the size issue. Difficult to answer really, she may just be a crap queen or they may be highly infected with varroa or they may just be doing what bees do to confound us.
I'd check varroa levels and if low perhaps let them sort it out,. By your description she is not firing on all cylinders.

 

[Finman]

.
Buy a laying Queen. You save one brood cycle that the colony has time to grow before winter. IT is almost September when the new Queen starts to lay. And then almost end of Semtember when new bees emerge.
.

 

[Teemore]

When we come out of a prolonged period of poor summer weather, I have found that some colonies will contain dismantled/holed queen cells as described. Colonies seem to destroy the queen cells in the order that they were capped, starting with the oldest/most mature. On occasion, they give up on swarming altogether but in other situations, when the weather picks up they are immediately ready to go looking for a new home and they have a new queen ready to emerge.
I have encountered torn down queen cells and ones with holes in the side with one, sometimes several intact queen cells remaining in the hive with fully mature queens inside. "Feed holes" have been visible in these along with a lot of extra bracing wax that I have interpreted as being the colony's attempt to confine the new queen(s) for a period.

With regard to the OP's opening points/questions, I would not assume that the colony is attempting supercedure. It was commented that there are two full frames of brood and brood on two other frames. What is on the other four frames referenced in the brood box? Are they packed with stores? A lack of space for a queen to lay in has long been identified as something to watch out for in bee hives as it is associated with swarming.

 

[Finman]

With regard to the OP's opening points/questions, I would not assume that the colony is attempting supercedure. It was commented that there are two full frames of brood and brood on two other frames. What is on the other four frames referenced in the brood box? Are they packed with stores? A lack of space for .m.

With the risk that you have drone layer queen after winter or good for nothing colony to overwinter. I would play for sure in these cases. ... But perhaps life is so seripus to debate for one small colony.

 

[Teemore]

With the risk that you have drone layer queen after winter or good for nothing colony to overwinter. I would play for sure in these cases. ...

I don't disagree with this at all. I only seek to highlight that the Original Poster's scenario may not be supercedure. Whether it is supercedure or swarming, there are similar issues to deal with and as you say, these could lead to a drone layer....

Were I in the position of the OP, I, like you, would be removing the queen from this colony and introducing a mated and laying queen. Should the OP decide to introduce a new, mated and laying queen to this colony, they should be aware that the inclination to swarm can stay with a colony even after the new queen has been introduced and they may attempt to swarm with the new queen. I would anticipate this earlier in the season though. I consider that introduction of a new queen after all the brood is sealed is likely to give a better outcome. Other beekeepers will have other thoughts on the matter.

 

[jeff33]

My thoughts on the matter is take nothing for granted. I introduced a few new mated queens this year, all good for a couple of weeks and the little b***** decided to raise their own queens and kill my new ones. So if this happens he could end up with a dlq.

 

[Finman]

I don't disagree with this at all. I only seek to highlight that the Original Poster's scenario may not be supercedure. Whether it is supercedure or swarming, there are similar issues to deal with and as you say, these could lead to a drone layer....

.

A week colony which is going to swarm in AUGUST. Propably superceding.

A week colony, which is going to get a laying Queen in September.

Right or not, but not good alternatives in either cases.

 

[Eyeman]

My thoughts on the matter is take nothing for granted. I introduced a few new mated queens this year, all good for a couple of weeks and the little b***** decided to raise their own queens and kill my new ones. So if this happens he could end up with a dlq.

You need to keep removing those new queen cells if the new queen is still there.
This happens all the time. Need to recheck weekly

 

[Mandeville]

Thanks to all for your thoughts.

It was commented that there are two full frames of brood and brood on two other frames. What is on the other four frames referenced in the brood box? Are they packed with stores? A lack of space for a queen to lay in has long been identified as something to watch out for in bee hives as it is associated with swarming.

There were four frames with brood, two with some stores (but certainly not full) and two of foundation partiall drawn. So plenty of space for the queen to lay if she was willing and able!

When we come out of a prolonged period of poor summer weather, I have found that some colonies will contain dismantled/holed queen cells as described. Colonies seem to destroy the queen cells in the order that they were capped, starting with the oldest/most mature. On occasion, they give up on swarming altogether but in other situations, when the weather picks up they are immediately ready to go looking for a new home and they have a new queen ready to emerge.

Up to a point, this does sound like what I have going on. But seeing eggs as well made me think that they weren't really making swarm preparations. Also the weather here hasn't been that bad (until today obviously!!) so I would think they could have found suitable conditions to swarm.

I take the point that I need to get them sorted quickly - I have another very small colony with a queen who has just started to lay, so I could unite them, although she's a bit of an unknown quantity at the moment ......

 

[jeff33]

You need to keep removing those new queen cells if the new queen is still there.
This happens all the time. Need to recheck weekly

I try to when it's early in the season but when it gets to end of July it's risky in case I miss 1 or they carry on trying to raise queens. 2 hives actually killed the queens before cells were capped.