Striving for racial purity in bees a pointless, counter productive, seriously bad idea?

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Beebe 

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Hence the ruthless culling that went on. I wonder if modern sympathies will undo the work of previous generations?
I think and hope not; Im no fan of deliberate vandalism...but it's a big world and there's room for all of us......and our bees. :)
 

gmonag 

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If is difficult or even undesireable to breed a pure race of bee, surely it is very simple and desireable to stop messing up the existing genepool all the time, by constantly importing new stock.
I'm sure that the bees' natural behaviours will go a long way to finding the "best" (i.e. fittest) DNA as long as we stop injecting foreign/different genes.
 

Beebe 

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If is difficult or even undesireable to breed a pure race of bee, surely it is very simple and desireable to stop messing up the existing genepool all the time, by constantly importing new stock.
I'm sure that the bees' natural behaviours will go a long way to finding the "best" (i.e. fittest) DNA as long as we stop injecting foreign/different genes.
I agree with you and believe that all to be true. But in this imperfect world in which we and the bees live, it's futile to have any expectation that a significant number of people will be prepared to discontinue with their own "Project Bee Improvement", and why should they?

Those of us who have no preference for any specific type of honeybee, whether "pure" or "hybrid" can have much more fun (or fear) with the constant lottery of working with whatever that genepool throws up.

In the short time I've been here I've seen a fair number of impassioned arguments which seem to have done nothing to change the way people breed their bees but which must certainly have knocked months of some peoples' lives due to raised blood pressure. :)
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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What happens if I breed 10 generations of say cockapoo?
The cocker is a spaniel (not even a breed as they were historically labelled by size - small=cocker (used for hunting woodcock, medium=springer (used to flush - 'spring' game from cover) large=field (used to range out more on open ground)
A poodle is just a French water spaniel.
 

Murox 

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I read that apparently, queen-bees allowed to do their own thing will do that thing with around 20 and possibly many more drones. As the queen tends to fly significantly further from home ground than her own drones, she mates with "strangers". In selecting a likely egg to raise as a queen, the workers will choose the ones with the rarest patriline; I'm not sure if that means they choose the ones of which the fewest of their sisters share a father or simply the rarest...maybe the most completely different genetic makeup from the rest of the colony. So bees have inherited behaviour patterns which actively seek maximum variation and minimum inbreeding.

The above behaviours seem incompatible with the concept that we should try to seek, as the title puts it, "racial purity in bees".

As for Icelandic horses, I presume they are a breed and not a sub-species. I know even less about dogs than I do about Icelandic horses and bees, but I am aware that a lot of "pure" breeds of dogs have an inherent propensity to specific health issues which are related to their genetics.

Sadly yes, a lot of which can be ascribed to poor/indescriminate breeding lack of control(s) and indeed a lack of culling which became frowned upon over the years. (see post 40 above).
 

madasafish 

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If is difficult or even undesireable to breed a pure race of bee, surely it is very simple and desireable to stop messing up the existing genepool all the time, by constantly importing new stock.
I'm sure that the bees' natural behaviours will go a long way to finding the "best" (i.e. fittest) DNA as long as we stop injecting foreign/different genes.

Locally ,bees in the wild appear to be swarmy, bad tempered and nasty.

If that is the best nature can do, I plan to do better.
 

Murox 

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The cocker is a spaniel (not even a breed as they were historically labelled by size - small=cocker (used for hunting woodcock, medium=springer (used to flush - 'spring' game from cover) large=field (used to range out more on open ground)
A poodle is just a French water spaniel.
I think the selective breeding started around the 1500's.
 

Beebe 

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I would disagree, we need to cut population by over half for the world to be a sustainable place to live......
You're going a bit deep here....all I'm meaning is let's live and let live....each to their own type of beekeeping and bees.
 

jenkinsbrynmair 

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I think the selective breeding started around the 1500's.
But they were still graded purely by size until the Kennel Club got their sticky fingers in the pie early last century
My ancestor King Hywel ap Cadell (880-948) king of Deheubarth, Wales and the Britons was said to have spaniels in his court, similar to the modern day Welsh spaniel

I would disagree, we need to cut population by over half for the world to be a sustainable place to live......
I have a few ideas for the first tranche 😁
 

Murox 

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OK, and since you clearly know more than I do, is it true that we cannot breed honeybees true? That we might as well just play a numbers game, not queen-cull swarms etc etc.? The @Hivemaker. s of this world I suppose are sort of inland Colonsays before anyone cites him at me.
I can say that the dog is not haploid, and given freedom the bitches are promiscuous and capable of having pups from more than one male in the same litter. As for breeding honeybees true - it rather depends upon your definitions - are the Buckfast genetics fixed ?
 

Mint Bee 

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If is difficult or even undesireable to breed a pure race of bee, surely it is very simple and desireable to stop messing up the existing genepool all the time, by constantly importing new stock.
I'm sure that the bees' natural behaviours will go a long way to finding the "best" (i.e. fittest) DNA as long as we stop injecting foreign/different genes.
Any aspect of human led animal breeding introduces new genetics into a species that is being refined to find the 'best' characteristics. It depends on what the definition of 'best' is. What you are describing is leaving the bees to evolve without any human interference, which is not going to happen in the UK - even AMM / local bee enthusiasts are interfering. Those damn foreign genes are already endemic and have been for decades. From feedback, in many areas, the best the local bees can be described as is bad tempered and swarmy. Maybe this is their natural evolution to fight varroa through introducing aggressive behaviour and regular brood breaks, but these are not traits most beekeepers would promote or accept, perhaps with the exception of let alone keepers.
 

Finman 

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Locally ,bees in the wild appear to be swarmy, bad tempered and nasty.
Meaning is that during its evolution honeybee has protected itself against robbers. Before the time when a human started to walk on globe

Where else bees can be than "locally".

My opinion is, that calm, nonswarming, nice to human are gene error features and they will be healed in crossings and hybrid matings.
 

Finman 

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Any aspect of human led animal breeding introduces new genetics into species

Those damn foreign genes are already endemic and have been for decades. From feedback, in many areas, the best the local bees can be described as is bad tempered and swarmy. Maybe this is their natural evolution to fight varroa through introducing aggressive behaviour and
What is the honeybee breeding. It is very short. Not like cattle or horse or pig, 4000 years old.

Real breeding started 150 years ago, when a human invented movable frame and he could change a queen from the hive.

Then artificial insemination after second worldwar.

Then British beekeepers, who are over 90% two hive owners. And how many of them actually want to keep their bee strains in control.

And then all those foreign bee genes. Nothing good in outer world.


And then the main point: original bee strains from Ice Age. No selection during last 10 000 years.
 
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Mint Bee 

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What is the honeybee breeding. It is very short. Not like cattle or horse or pig, 4000 years old.

Real breeding started 150 years ago, when a human invented movable frame and he could change a queen from the hive.

Then artificial insemination after second worldwar.

Then British beekeepers, who are over 90% two hive owners. And how many of them actually want to keep their bee strains in control.

And then all those foreign bee genes. Nothing good in outer world.
Irony was focused on gmonag's post. Doesn't work so well in the written word....

We already have a multicultral bee genome in the UK. That horse boulted long ago.
 

Apiarist 

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That article uses a Map (Fig. 1) which is now VERY outdated: Just to satisfy my curiosity, does anyone know from where the author has obtained that map, at first I thought a book, but it doesn't look like a scan, so maybe a website - that would hopefully give me the origin of his claims... he could have at least cited the source(s) for his article; by an author not citing sources it creates doubt in the readers mind as to the scientific accuracy of what he's writing. (A book is referenced, but it was published recently in 2015 so it can't be the source of the outdated map).

He could have at least defined the ambiguous phrase "genetically incompatible", which apparently only shows itself (by the spontaneous appearance of aggression) whenever the A. m. Carnica / Ligustica or Buckfast genes have been diluted to around 25% to 16% amongst the colony.

Just noticed "Branch C - South Western sub-species" ... apparently the Carpathian mountains are in South Western Europe, ... I always called those mountains in the South West of Europe the Pyrenees!
 

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