Stopping supercedure becoming swarming?

[Sutty]

On of my colonies that I examined today had produced 1 single charged queen cell, so I presume they are trying to supercede.
However I know in swarming season they can sometimes swarm once "supercedure" cells are sealed.
So.... Is there a way of stopping this happening, apart from some form of A/S?
I was wondering if confining the queen in a frame cage would work? Maybe they would swarm with the emerged virgin?

 

[pargyle]

They can swarm on one queen cell - if you are concerned - then do an A/S - you can always recombine them after you have seen the new queen they have created and how she performs ...you can keep the new queen, keep the old queen or increase your colonies by one ..

 

[Sutty]

They can swarm on one queen cell - if you are concerned - then do an A/S - you can always recombine them after you have seen the new queen they have created and how she performs ...you can keep the new queen, keep the old queen or increase your colonies by one ..

Hard to know whether to be concerned or not!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

personally I think the fable of supersedure turning into swarming is just that - a fable hinged on the received 'wisdom' that the QC's position on the frame determines whether its supersedure or swarming, when in the end what these people see is a frame of swarm cells, but just because one is in the middle of the frame it must have started as supersedure.
in the end, bees may swarm on a single cell, or supersede on a dozen.
In high season, if I feel there is a chance of them swarming after I find what mught be a supersedure cell, I just remove the queen and nuc her as per anti swarm action, leave the bees in the main hive carry on raising the single 'supersedure' cell (going in after a week to deal with any subsequent EQC's (I find if it was supersedure, they just carry on with the original QC) you then carrry on inspecting the nuced queen - if it was swarming, they will just build up happily as any nuc would, if it was supersedure, you will usually find another supersedure cell when you next inspect.

 

[pargyle]

Hard to know whether to be concerned or not!

I know ... that's beekeeping for you ... rock and a hard place most of the time. The bees don't follow the rules all the time ... what would I do ? Depends on the colony .. if they are nice bees and productive I'd take the opportunity to create another colony and A/S - then, if it is swarm preps you've stopped it.

 

[Sutty]

Just to complicate matters this is a colony that was the result of a unite 2 weeks ago, I wonder if that has somehow stimulated the supercedure response.
Tempted to go back in tomorrow and remove the one queen cell.

 

[jarmo henttu]

On of my colonies that I examined today had produced 1 single charged queen cell, so I presume they are trying to supercede.
However I know in swarming season they can sometimes swarm once "supercedure" cells are sealed.
So.... Is there a way of stopping this happening, apart from some form of A/S?
I was wondering if confining the queen in a frame cage would work? Maybe they would swarm with the emerged virgin?

This this time of year I would take it as a swarming cell.

I have met several hives, which has started very early with one or two and then have appered about 10 queen cells.

 

[Sutty]

I know ... that's beekeeping for you ... rock and a hard place most of the time. The bees don't follow the rules all the time ... what would I do ? Depends on the colony .. if they are nice bees and productive I'd take the opportunity to create another colony and A/S - then, if it is swarm preps you've stopped it.

I follow the thinking, but I'm trying to reduce colony numbers rather than make increase!

 

[JamezF]

personally I think the fable of supersedure turning into swarming is just that - a fable hinged on the received 'wisdom' that the QC's position on the frame determines whether its supersedure or swarming, when in the end what these people see is a frame of swarm cells, but just because one is in the middle of the frame it must have started as supersedure.

Is there anyone who actually attempts to justify why (alleged) supersedure cells might be on the face of the comb? Or why cells on the face of the comb are likely to be for supercedure?

If there's a laying queen in the colony, why would supercedure cells be any different from swarm cells (other than possibly in number)?

It's known that when an emergency queen is required, workers can and do choose between eggs/larvae to make a new queen, presumably to get the best possible outcome. I can see that if the perceived "quality" of the eggs being laid by the queen is in decline then they might choose eggs laid two or three days ago or recently-hatched larvae to use instead of building a queen cell and then getting the queen to lay in it, in which case supercedure cells might appear on the face of the comb, but that's just guessing.

Even Wally Shaw in his "What do I do when I find queen cells?" paper says that supercedure cells are on the face of the comb as far as I recall.

James

 

[Sutty]

This one was at the bottom of an outer frame on the bottom of two brood chambers (though there was also a box below under a QE (trying to get them to move stores up). Not on the face of the frame.

 

[Sutty]

My current feeling is to remove the QC and check in a week (with a more thorough check for more first).
Maybe in a week there will be lots, or none!
If there are more that I didn't see today then nuc the queen if I can find her, and reduce to one.

 

[Antipodes]

On of my colonies that I examined today had produced 1 single charged queen cell, so I presume they are trying to supercede.
However I know in swarming season they can sometimes swarm once "supercedure" cells are sealed.
So.... Is there a way of stopping this happening, apart from some form of A/S?
I was wondering if confining the queen in a frame cage would work? Maybe they would swarm with the emerged virgin?

How old is the current queen?

 

[Sutty]

How old is the current queen?

Not really sure after some unites last year, could be getting on a bit I guess.

 

[Antipodes]

Not really sure after some unites last year, could be getting on a bit I guess.

You could keep the cell and arrange things such that the new queen from it emerges, mates and builds up brood and workers, but also at the same time, keep the older queen as a back-up whilst she also builds up workers and brood around her. Combine in early July for a smashing big colony to get you honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is there anyone who actually attempts to justify why (alleged) supersedure cells might be on the face of the comb? Or why cells on the face of the comb are likely to be for supercedure?

I think it's down to many people who cannot think in three dimensions (in fact, many on the dark side struggle with two) if you forget frames and just think of the colony as a ball then yes, it seems that bees tend to build supersedure (it's not supercedure BTW) on the periphery of the nest, but with frames, you 'slice' up the ball, if you pick up the end frame, then the 'periphery' brood will just be a small patch in the middle of the frame, so yes, the QC will be in the middle of the frame, if you take a frame from the middle of the pack then the 'periphery' will be on the sides, bottom or top of the frame, and I have found supersedure cells in all of these positions, often tucked in between the edge of the brood and the side bars.
As for this other myth of supersedure cells being built 'on the face' of the comb, rather (I assume) than in the structure of the comb, I think that's absolute B*''*cks. I've found plenty of vacated supersedure cells over the years, so deep that at first glance they look like cells that would produce small runty queens, but when I've dug in, found they extend all the way through the septum and the base was almost flush with the capped cells on the other side of the frame

 

[Sutty]

I'm really not wanting to create more colonies if I can avoid it!
I went back into this hive today, shook the bees off all 22 brood frames the queen can access, only the single QC.
I've knocked it back and will check again in a few days or a week. I'm hoping they go off the idea
If they produce one or very few cells again I'll chance it or cull the queen if I can spot her.

 

[Steve7962]

I had a similar experience last week, inspected 1 of my colonies last Friday that was quite small in size but had a single queen cup with a egg in it, I had to peel the wax to get a good view that it was charged. Curiosity got the better of me yesterday and I checked this colony again to find that the bees had rebuilt the cup to an uncapped cell and that they had raised a 2nd queen cell on a 2nd frame; both cells mid frames.

I’m not sure now if it’s a supercedure or not…. I made a split regardless and will add further frames of emerging brood from other colonies going forward if each colony looks too small.

 

[Antipodes]

I had a similar experience last week, inspected 1 of my colonies last Friday that was quite small in size but had a single queen cup with a egg in it, I had to peel the wax to get a good view that it was charged. Curiosity got the better of me yesterday and I checked this colony again to find that the bees had rebuilt the cup to an uncapped cell and that they had raised a 2nd queen cell on a 2nd frame; both cells mid frames.

I’m not sure now if it’s a supercedure or not…. I made a split regardless and will add further frames of emerging brood from other colonies going forward if each colony looks too small.

Good work.

 

[Sutty]

Update: I checked this again on Wednesday - identical situation with 1 open QC, not many eggs & young larvae though so maybe the queen is failing.
I've crossed my fingers and left them to it this time, though kicking myself that when I found and remarked the queen I didn't think to clip her!

 

[drex]

One of mine is in same situation. I too am leaving them to it