Starving?

[BugsInABox]

'twas I that posted about the 'not feeding' :-(
But they continued to seem well making comb ect. Last week all seemed well, brood at all stages, queen seen, pollen, very little nectar but I assume they were just using it all to make wax still.

But today all changed;
No roar when I smoked gently was the 1st sign of an issue. Opening up everything very lethargic, little activity over comb even brood comb. Saw some eggs but I don't think larvae, queen not seen today, no swarm cells (unless I missed them). Bees barely flying and falling off comb, lots of bees on floor of hive - some moving some not.
I dusted them and put some syrup back in. Have I mis diagnosed, anything else I can do?

 

[Beagle23]

'twas I that posted about the 'not feeding' :-(
But they continued to seem well making comb ect. Last week all seemed well, brood at all stages, queen seen, pollen, very little nectar but I assume they were just using it all to make wax still.

But today all changed;
No roar when I smoked gently was the 1st sign of an issue. Opening up everything very lethargic, little activity over comb even brood comb. Saw some eggs but I don't think larvae, queen not seen today, no swarm cells (unless I missed them). Bees barely flying and falling off comb, lots of bees on floor of hive - some moving some not.
I dusted them and put some syrup back in. Have I mis diagnosed, anything else I can do?

So the first thing to look for is a very significant drop in the number of bees (forget the dead ones). If that's the case it may be that they've swarmed and hoovered up all the stored in doing so.
If there isn't a decrease in bee numbers then it may be that they've just eaten their stores and are indeed starving, the syrup should put that right. Can you see any stores on the frames?

Failing that you can do a varoa count, but unless the numbers are really high you shouldn't see the colony suffering to the extent that you imply

How do the larvae look?

 

[BugsInABox]

It's a nuc I installed 3 weeks ago so, possibly in my ignorance I assumed swarming/varoa was less likely an issue - thought my impression was that there were fewer bees around. No stores at all in the comb. I saw eggs - but not much larvae. One was black (?chilled).
I've been back to them - about an hour after sugar dusting - and they've livened up a lot - a few flying. Gave them another dusting. My worry now is they've had a significant brood chill - will they sort that out themselves?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You're better off feeding bees by giving them syrup rather than sprinkling sugar on them.
And yes, they were starving.

 

[enrico]

I agree, feed with syrup urgently. If you can't see stores.........
E

 

[BugsInABox]

Thanks guys, I did both. Hopefully they take the syrup this time. (See my previous).

 

[Ian123]

Punch a few holes in a jar lid and shake onto a frame, a spatula across the comb helps break the air bubble in cell and force it in. Better to do away from any hives

 

[Millet]

Punch a few holes in a jar lid and shake onto a frame, a spatula across the comb helps break the air bubble in cell and force it in. Better to do away from any hives

I had to do that 2yrs ago to a robbed out nuc they pulled through but by the skin of there teeth.

 

[eltalia]

Thanks guys, I did both. Hopefully they take the syrup this time. (See my previous).

You would prove/disprove a lot of the "wotif" simply by adding
a frame of stores, just the one well stocked.
Buuut it is "beginners" so pumping sick bees with lollywater
is one learning pathway.

Bill

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

see the algorithm is having a bit of a rattle this morning
Anyone with a half functioning brain would have worked out that a complete beginner is very unlikely to have a frame of stores tucked in his back pocket.

 

[eltalia]

see the algorithm is having a bit of a rattle this morning
Anyone with a half functioning brain would have worked out that a complete beginner is
very unlikely to have a frame of stores tucked in his back pocket.

Installed bigotry blinds you - as any beekeeper would read "TBH" and
conclude the enquirer is well networked away from these pages.

Really the poster is in typical startup woes for TBH where it is only
horizontal-hive users that are best equipped to sort them out.
Have to then ask - in your limited experience has TBH ever figured
beyond projected sceptism of the style, an attitude birthing only derision?

Bill

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Installed bigotry blinds you - as any beekeeper would read "TBH" and
conclude the enquirer is well networked away from these pages.

Really the poster is in typical startup woes for TBH where it is only
horizontal-hive users that are best equipped to sort them out.
Have to then ask - in your limited experience has TBH ever figured
beyond projected sceptism of the style, an attitude birthing only derision?

Bill

Ah, so right then, you are an expert on TBH, Moveable frame hives, or just a teller of tall tales making your profile, or what you spout a lie?
I don't touch TBH's in the UK - I only teach their use in the country they were designed for - Africa

 

[BugsInABox]

Thanks for the help guys but eltalia I didn't really understand yours (W.O.T.I.F.)???- but yes TBH.

Quick update.
They livened up within an hour of the sugar dust and took a ltr of 1-1 syrup over the next 2 days. Had a look the next day - couldn't see Queen, but did see eggs. Had another look Wednesday - they were grumpy - queen seen, eggs, not larvae ( I find them harder to see than eggs now the comb is darkening).
Just did a full inspection. They are making comb again, decent amount of pollen & uncapped nectar but no capped stores so I'll keep feeding. Saw Queen. Eggs again, still struggling with larvae but the capped brood is a really good pattern - saw some adults actually emerging so hopefully my fears re complete chill over-blown ����.
Other observations, number of flying drones significantly reduced from how things were in the 2 weeks after install (were some capped drone cells though). Queen has been on the edge of the brood chamber both times I've seen her. Perhaps I'm imaging it but the cluster of bees round her also less apparent.

So I've learnt
Bees that look like they're working a flow can still be starving
- this can happen quickly
- especially when making lots of wax.
The holes in the lid of a feeder jar need to be a bit bigger than those made by a drawing pin
Dusting with icing sugar seemed like a reasonable emergency response.

I have a question though - are they mean because I've damaged the Queen or do they always get gradually more defensive as the session goes on. If it could be either how do I tell.

 

[BugsInABox]

12

 

[Murox]

Thanks for the help.........snip...........So I've learnt
Bees that look they're working a flow can still be starving
- this can happen quickly
- especially when making lots of wax.
The holes in the lid of a feeder jar need to be a bit bigger than those made by a drawing pin
Dusting with icing sugar seemed like a reasonable emergency response.
I have a question though - are they mean because I've damaged my Queen or do they always get gradually more defensive as the session goes on. If it could be either how do I tell.

Not too big, it must not drip.

Some bees are just mean. The way you handle them matters. The weather influences their behaviour as does presence and amount of queen pheromones. If they just pour out and try to sting you - thats nasty.
If they just bump and ping - its telling you to back off - if you don't they will probably sting

 

[BugsInABox]

They will usually (not always) tolerate me sitting to watch within 3ft of their door and closer. They do seem to bump and ping 1st and if they do decide to see me off chase for about 10 yds. Being new it's hard to guage what's acceptable, but thinking about it the last 2 times I've been in it has been overcast whereas the their gentle days were definitely warmer. I'll push on.

 

[Poly Hive]

From what I am reading on the FB groups there are alot, of nucs especially, in starvation or close to starvation condition. If in doubt feed please. Better safe than sorry. I fed mine yesterday.

PH

 

[markjadams]

That makes no sense at all (-: referring to the Eltalia post.

 

[Beefriendly]

Being new it's hard to guage what's acceptable, .

My acid test is can I run run my power lawnmower past the ends if the hives without attracting their attention.
If I get "bothered" that hive leaves the garden...currently about 7 hive and 4 nucs all pass that test. One failed in May...got moved.

 

[eltalia]

Thanks for the help guys but eltalia I didn't really understand yours (W.O.T.I.F.)???- but yes TBH.

What if this, what if that, is "wotif" syndrome, loads of speculation
largely based on false premise - it is almost a religion for some.

My apoligies for that lapse in not addressing this earlier as I had the
topic turned off following the ignorant bigotry in post #12. I'll cop
a smidgeon of snideness but I refuse to abide being named a liar.
I should have reported that post however in my limited time online
I have learnt not to presume Admins have the time nor inclination to
play kindergarten cop.
... enuff said.

Reading on I note you are pumping lollywater into a colony attempting
to survive, not "grow" but simply use their own resources to work within
the conditions. Where there is a flow on - of any magnitude - they are not
starving, it is impossible regardless of *your* expectations.
What that lollywater is doing is providing a false impetus and so creating
more work, consuming more energy, and throughly buggering up their
stability in progress.
And all of this only because of a poor selection of defensive genetics which
as you'll find out - if they survive - will only compoundly escalate as the
colony reaches strength.
We all had to start somewhere so I'll leave you tuit, writing those bees off
as a lost cause.
Tirrah...

Bill