Spraying Apple cider vinegar over honey bees

[jenkinsbrynmair]

or Sweet Fanny Adams for us mariners

 

[Erichalfbee]

This thread is nothing to do with varroa. Zilch, nada, zero, naught and diddly squat.

It did start off as a varroa thread though.

 

[blackcloud]

Barley wine anyone?

 

[Anduril]

It did start off as a varroa thread though.

No! It is all about viruses which were around way before varroa entered the UK, US and Europe.
As an addendum, India were using cow urine for viruses.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh I just skimmed through some of the videos. I thought it was about helping bees cope with varroa. Thank you for the correction.
Nice to see Finnie back though

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the OP banged on about varroa from the outset

 

[rolande]

No! It is all about viruses which were around way before varroa entered the UK, US and Europe.
As an addendum, India were using cow urine for viruses.

I've not read all of this thread but your comment brings to mind a mention of using cider vinegar for bees in one of Juliette de Bairacli Levy's books, it's a long time -perhaps 25 years since I last read it and I can't remember the context off hand. Probably totally irrelevant to this thread but I like to add the (very) odd reference occasionally.

​

 

[Anduril]

the OP banged on about varroa from the outset

The OP banged on more about what constitutes as cider and then got confused with peppermint. By post 13 varroa was mentioned. Our cousins across the pond have a penchant for calling it apple cider vinegar so that it doesn't confuse the masses.

 

[Moobee]

The OP banged on more about what constitutes as cider and then got confused with peppermint. By post 13 varroa was mentioned. Our cousins across the pond have a penchant for calling it apple cider vinegar so that it doesn't confuse the masses.

Or 'hard cider' when it should be just cider.....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Or 'hard cider' when it should be just cider.....

you never had a cider lolipop?

 

[The Poot]

Oh I just skimmed through some of the videos. I thought it was about helping bees cope with varroa. Thank you for the correction.
Nice to see Finnie back though

Finny’s back?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I reckon so

Finny’s back?

 

[Anduril]

Finny’s back?

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/too-early-for-a-shook-swarm.39105/post-581074
Due to the name!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Finny’s back?

I reckon so

What was Ian Cuthbertson's line in the intro to the series 'Charles Endell Esq.?
I'm back, I'm definitely back!

 

[JamezF]

What was Ian Cuthbertson's line in the intro to the series 'Charles Endell Esq.?
I'm back, I'm definitely back!

I can't deny that one had completely passed me by.

James

 

[Ely]

Isn't this just a step back? We've moved onto pure oxalic acid sublimation as natural progression because it is effective. It is also a natural treatment.

How natural do you want to be? Leave it to nature and it will quickly find a way to kill off colonies. Nature is cruel. Nature usually finds balance with millions of different species fighting for survival but that has nothing to do with beekeeping. If you choose to keep livestock, use the best researched methods to look after them IMHO

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I can't deny that one had completely passed me by.

I just recall watching it on TV with my grandmother on (I think) saturday evenings, but for some reason the statement at the end of the opening credits, as he walks out the prison gates has stuck in my mind for all these years
"I'm back, I'm definitely back'
He sort of resurrected the character as 'the scunner Campbell' in the supergran series years later!

 

[Erichalfbee]

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/too-early-for-a-shook-swarm.39105/post-581074
Due to the name!

I’ve just got back from my penultimate hospital review feeling pretty chipper. This has made me even chipperer but with nostalgia.
Thanks @Anduril

 

[Moobee]

you never had a cider lolipop?

Oooh no, that sounds delicious!

 

[Beesnaturally]

Isn't this just a step back? We've moved onto pure oxalic acid sublimation as natural progression because it is effective. It is also a natural treatment.

How natural do you want to be? Leave it to nature and it will quickly find a way to kill off colonies. Nature is cruel. Nature usually finds balance with millions of different species fighting for survival but that has nothing to do with beekeeping. If you choose to keep livestock, use the best researched methods to look after them IMHO

A few thoughts:

Americans call apple juice cider, and fermented apple juice hard cider. That's the extent of my knowledge on that topic.

Aromatic herbs have evolved because the oil-based aromatic compounds disrupt predatory organisms. When sheep graze my field they scoff the grass, but won't touch the wild thyme even when they are hungry. They don't like the smell and taste. And so: the thyme thrives.

We don't know what other would-be predators the many complex compounds disrupt in similar, and likely dissimilar ways. But thymol is .... thyme oil (presumably synthesized nowadays?). So my having lots of thyme in my field is quite possibly a helpful thing in terms of varroa resistance. Whether other aromatic plants work against varroa I have no idea, but we can be open to the thought at least.

However...

... _any_ sort of treating or artificial interference is taking evolutionary pressure off the local population - pressure that is _needed_ for the local population to have good health. Wild populations locate health through natural section for the fittest strains. And there is ample evidence, Ely, that this happens wherever bees are left alone - rapidly. The weak perish, and the strong make the next generation, which carries their strength-giving properties. Anything you do that disrupts that process is harmful to free-living bees.

(Ely, also: strychnine is a natural substance. So is cholera. Appealing to 'natural substances' doesn't hold up for a second.)

What has happened here is that the modern agricultural approach of applying pharmaceutical solutions to livestock has been carried into beekeeping. And that is a catastrophe for the free-living population. It works just fine in closed-mating settings (and all other livestock are kept on a closed, and tightly controlled, mating basis). It doesn't work in free-mating populations, because fundamentally unhealthy individuals are constantly injecting their genes, and therefore their characteristics, into the wild population. In the case of bees, the character being injected is the inability to stay alive without help. And that cripples, absolutely undoes, the necessary process of natural selection.

--------------

'Treatment free' cannot be about 'natural' treatments, or about manipulations that aid the bees. Because: _anything_ you do to help the bees fight varroa will send inadequate genes into a local population _that you need_. And corrode, and destroy it.