So, what now?

[Swarm]

@fenster- In "swarm season" ~ the period of high brood production often just prior to the start of a main nectar flow, their natural way of propagation, is often caused by brood chamber congestion, (and/or sometimes the age of the queen and her ability to produce enough pheromone to keep large numbers of bees together) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with super space.

Swarming during a strong nectar flow occurs because you have not provided appropriate SUPER SPACE AT THE TIME THE BEES NEEDED to store a lot nectar i.e. not enough DRAWN comb/supers when the bees needed them.
And sometimes bees just don't read the same books, they will often catch you out.

Generally, if there is a honey arc on the top of the brood frame , 7 or 8 frames of brood, they probably have about the right size of box - you can just super it.
You may not find a honey arc - it’s wall to wall brood, every cell right to the outside ~ you’ve got a nice prolific queen and she’s laying up every cell - give them another brood box, not a super.
If she’s a less prolific queen and you have got a honey arc, you don’t need another brood box because she isn’t likely to go up there. Put on a super. Even with several supers on they will find the space and fill the top box.

There are some great informative pdf files on the internet by Wally Shaw. I will try and dig out the links and post them.

Colony management.

 

[Speybee]

@fenster- In "swarm season" ~ the period of high brood production often just prior to the start of a main nectar flow, their natural way of propagation, is often caused by brood chamber congestion, (and/or sometimes the age of the queen and her ability to produce enough pheromone to keep large numbers of bees together) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with super space.

Swarming during a strong nectar flow occurs because you have not provided appropriate SUPER SPACE AT THE TIME THE BEES NEEDED to store a lot nectar i.e. not enough DRAWN comb/supers when the bees needed them.
And sometimes bees just don't read the same books, they will often catch you out.

Generally, if there is a honey arc on the top of the brood frame , 7 or 8 frames of brood, they probably have about the right size of box - you can just super it.
You may not find a honey arc - it’s wall to wall brood, every cell right to the outside ~ you’ve got a nice prolific queen and she’s laying up every cell - give them another brood box, not a super.
If she’s a less prolific queen and you have got a honey arc, you don’t need another brood box because she isn’t likely to go up there. Put on a super. Even with several supers on they will find the space and fill the top box.

There are some great informative pdf files on the internet by Wally Shaw. I will try and dig out the links and post them.

Wally Shaw has been a godsend to me earlier this season with his various papers posted on the Internet

 

[thorn]

Swarm prevention is all about colony management, nothing to do with the type of bee you keep. Your purchased queen could just as easily do the same, which is why I never advise novice beekeepers to buy queens because they are more likely to lose swarms.
You can lose swarms from double boxes too, it's just up to the beekeeper to be on top of things.

Do you not accept that some bees have a swarm tendency and will go whatever you do?

 

[thorn]

You have been mislead if you think the above is true and if a Queen swarms this season there is nothing to suggest she will swarm the year after. Likewise, queens can happily sit in their hives for a couple of years before making swarm preps.
Lots of ginger swarms hanging in trees this year, and quite a few blue marked queens, that would fly in the eye of non swarmy buckfast claims.
Beekeeper error is the reason bees swarm.

Not always.

 

[thorn]

Colony management.

Explain please. The two words alone are meaningless.

 

[redpig]

Explain please. The two words alone are meaningless.

Common trait
Through-out

 

[Swarm]

Explain please. The two words alone are meaningless.

Even with the info in the quote?

 

[ericbeaumont]

1 Just 7 weeks from installing the nucleus the bees swarmed. On the following weekly inspection there were a couple of capped queen cells

2 They have drawn a couple more frames in the additional brood box but there is no sign that the queen ever goes there. The super, although mostly drawn before the swarm, is now deserted and I assume it will remain so until the space is needed and my worry is that it may never be.

3 It was pretty obvious even before the swarm that the single brood box was crowded but the extra space in the super did not prevent a swarm.The additional brood box now has a few frames which are very heavy with honey but no brood. I guess I have to leave that to them for winter. Now I don't know how to configure the hive for next year and when to do it. With one brood box I got a swarm; with two there is too much space to interest the bees in developing the super. I feel I ought to be going back to a single brood box some time but the population is too high right now.

1 There's an intriguing info. gap between hiving the nuc and swarming: did you inspect every seven days, what did you discover and what did you do?

2 Bees need fuel - nectar or syrup - to draw comb and I reckon they built more rapidly on the syrup than you expected, swarmed and then hit the buffers when the feed was gone and the flow over. Desertion of the surplus space is natural: no flow and fewer bees in the box.

It is difficult for a novice to match colony development to nectar flows and space, but where I am we had a very good spring flow on which bees built strongly, a May/June drought and nectar dearth (bees sat doing nothing), a middling main flow and a nothing since. Quite a number of mine were on triple brood by May, most others on double and I lost about four swarms out of eighty colonies. What were the flows like where you are?

3 Super space will not dissuade bees from swarming, presuming you use a QX. Brood space is the vital element early on (though super space is still needed) but if the beekeeper lets the queen run out of laying space the swarm switch is flicked on and there's no way to switch it off.

Consider getting rid of the super: it's of no use now and although it's partially drawn you don't say whether there's honey or syrup in the combs. If there is, extract it and feed it back to the bees. Store the box in a mouse-proof and dry place until next spring.

You've understood that one brood box is not enough for a prolific queen (what was the type of queen supplied?) and double brood - space - will help reduce the swarming impulse next season, as will the young queen you have (what type of queen is in there now?). Suggestion: if you were to put the bottom brood box on top and feed syrup, what would be the result?

Reading a colony is acquired through instinct and observation and as the hours spent by a one-hive owner are very slight - twenty hours a season? - by about year five you'll have the hang of it. Until then mistakes will accelerate your learning, not books nor the multitude of advice that flocks to your ears; though these are meant well they may confuse, so a good option is to work out your own plan and put that into action; if it's a total ****-up, at least you own it and will learn from the disaster.

Yes, your colony does have varroa and it's a risky strategy at your stage of the game to pretend that it's not a problem. If this sole colony dies in winter from lack of healthy winter bees you will not only lose the £240 you paid for the nuc, but back to square one: pay out again next May.

First memo: run two colonies next year, because you're unlikely to lose both in winter and can split the survivor in summer. Second memo: treat for varroa; the time for indulging all the variety of fancy alternatives lies far into your beekeeping future.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Colony management.

This is the core of it, fenster.

 

[StephenT]

Wally Shaw has been a godsend to me earlier this season with his various papers posted on the Internet

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdfI’ve found his papers to be a great resource for a beginner like myself. This one is great for learning about how to manage the colony to try and prevent swarm preparation and then what to do if they decide to.

 

[Speybee]

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Swarm-Control-Wally-Shaw.pdfI’ve found his papers to be a great resource for a beginner like myself. This one is great for learning about how to manage the colony to try and prevent swarm preparation and then what to do if they decide to.

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[North End Bees]

BIBBA have been running a series of webinars since lockdown, aimed at all stages of beekeeping experience.
They did a useful one for beginners called Keep Your Swarms To Yourself.
You can find it at

https://bibba.com/webinars-summer-2020/They explain the common causes of swarming and what you can do about it. Hope it's helpful for next season

 

[fenster]

How do you know varroa is not a problem?
There is no such thing as prophylactic varroa treatment. You can’t give the bees anything to prevent them getting infested

I understand that no sign of a problem is not the same as no problem. Would you recommend that I treat the hive for varroa just in case? Thanks.

 

[madasafish]

I understand that no sign of a problem is not the same as no problem. Would you recommend that I treat the hive for varroa just in case? Thanks.

I don't count varroa. I just treat.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I understand that no sign of a problem is not the same as no problem. Would you recommend that I treat the hive for varroa just in case? Thanks.

If you’re a beginner yes.
once you’ve got your head round the different ways of tackling the pest you can experiment in future years.

 

[fenster]

1 There's an intriguing info. gap between hiving the nuc and swarming: did you inspect every seven days, what did you discover and what did you do?

2 Bees need fuel - nectar or syrup - to draw comb and I reckon they built more rapidly on the syrup than you expected, swarmed and then hit the buffers when the feed was gone and the flow over. Desertion of the surplus space is natural: no flow and fewer bees in the box.

It is difficult for a novice to match colony development to nectar flows and space, but where I am we had a very good spring flow on which bees built strongly, a May/June drought and nectar dearth (bees sat doing nothing), a middling main flow and a nothing since. Quite a number of mine were on triple brood by May, most others on double and I lost about four swarms out of eighty colonies. What were the flows like where you are?

3 Super space will not dissuade bees from swarming, presuming you use a QX. Brood space is the vital element early on (though super space is still needed) but if the beekeeper lets the queen run out of laying space the swarm switch is flicked on and there's no way to switch it off.

Consider getting rid of the super: it's of no use now and although it's partially drawn you don't say whether there's honey or syrup in the combs. If there is, extract it and feed it back to the bees. Store the box in a mouse-proof and dry place until next spring.

You've understood that one brood box is not enough for a prolific queen (what was the type of queen supplied?) and double brood - space - will help reduce the swarming impulse next season, as will the young queen you have (what type of queen is in there now?). Suggestion: if you were to put the bottom brood box on top and feed syrup, what would be the result?

Reading a colony is acquired through instinct and observation and as the hours spent by a one-hive owner are very slight - twenty hours a season? - by about year five you'll have the hang of it. Until then mistakes will accelerate your learning, not books nor the multitude of advice that flocks to your ears; though these are meant well they may confuse, so a good option is to work out your own plan and put that into action; if it's a total ****-up, at least you own it and will learn from the disaster.

Yes, your colony does have varroa and it's a risky strategy at your stage of the game to pretend that it's not a problem. If this sole colony dies in winter from lack of healthy winter bees you will not only lose the £240 you paid for the nuc, but back to square one: pay out again next May.

First memo: run two colonies next year, because you're unlikely to lose both in winter and can split the survivor in summer. Second memo: treat for varroa; the time for indulging all the variety of fancy alternatives lies far into your beekeeping future.

Thank you for your detailed answer. 1am?! I have inspected every week from the start but I did not realise that the queen was running out of laying space. I am specifically looking out for that now. There is nothing in the super although mostly drawn. I can preserve that for next year. When I added the second brood box I put two frames with capped brood taken from the bottom in it. Those frames plus 2 are now ‘solid’ honey and there has never been any new brood in the upper box. (The excluder is above it.) Unless someone advises otherwise I was going to leave that as their supply for the winter. It’s OK for this year but I would hope for another year I can get the set up right to have a surplus.

 

[Patrick1]

Nothing to do with type of bees?

That’s contrary to almost all I read over 4-5 years of thinking about getting bees.

Surely little or less to do with?

Neil
BIAB

Management is everything, learn as much about YOUR bees as possible and quit reading some of the silly books. just one book worth reading for a new beekeeper is Ted Hooper, Guide to Bees and Honey, a bible of sorts.
Nothing is better than learning from your hive, just like learning from your children. They all have different personalities.

 

[Patrick1]

I just joined this forum. I hope this is not a typical response.

Don't be offended, it is sound reasoning

 

[Arfermo]

Approaching the end of my first summer season as a novice beekeeper and so far it has not been an impressive record. I purchased a nucleus of bees on May 9th and installed them in a National style hive with an additional 5 new frames and a feeder for a few weeks until the weather improved. Within a month the new frames in the brood box were drawn so I put in a queen excluder and a shallow super instead of the feed box. The centre 5 frames of the super were drawn within a couple of weeks but then, just 7 weeks from installing the nucleus the bees swarmed. On the following weekly inspection there were a couple of capped queen cells (I must have missed that on previous inspection) and a bunch of badly behaved bees. I removed the queen cells because I wanted to purchase a new queen which I did. She was installed within days and the hive calmed down. At the same time I put a second brood box in with two frames from the existing and replaced the super. Now 2 months after that drama the hive is functioning normally with loads of capped brood but plenty of laying space in the bottom. They have drawn a couple more frames in the additional brood box but there is no sign that the queen ever goes there. The super, although mostly drawn before the swarm, is now deserted and I assume it will remain so until the space is needed and my worry is that it may never be.

It was pretty obvious even before the swarm that the single brood box was crowded but the extra space in the super did not prevent a swarm.The additional brood box now has a few frames which are very heavy with honey but no brood. I guess I have to leave that to them for winter. Now I don't know how to configure the hive for next year and when to do it. With one brood box I got a swarm; with two there is too much space to interest the bees in developing the super. I feel I ought to be going back to a single brood box some time but the population is too high right now.

The way you started out was fine. What you then did was to try to go 'professional' with a new queen and other stuff without the basic precaution of knowing how good your existing queen in the nucleus was or of basic 'Swarm Management'. I don't think you needed to bother with another brood box (my hives never have a second one, maybe just a half on occasions) - just adding a super or two where they could have stored their honey would likely have done the trick, alongside clipping and marking the queen of course. Contrary to many fusspots about cruelty to ones bees, swarming is (a) a nuisance to anybody in the vicinity, and (b) a waste of a useful queen and her retinue. The simplest swarm control measure and one that the old boy who had been keeping 50 or more hives in several apiaries of bees from the age of 7 until he is/was(?) into his nineties that mentored me many years ago, was to mark and clip the queen and keep her for as long as she is usefully productive. After that, buying in queens is largely a waste of time as within a season or so they will want/need and generate a new queen themselves who will be mated by any of the local mongrels 'boys' who are in the mood and thereby mongrelise the whole hive - and any others you acquire/split whatever.
You now need to think about getting them through the winter by ensuring that they have plenty of stores to get them to about Xmas and also varroa control measures. Be sure they are carrying the mites!! No question. It is not too late to apply Apiguard if you can find some as it seems to be scarce for some reason (try googling Wynne Jones) or other alternative therapies involving thymol (?) and then think about applying the appropriate oxalic acid treatment early in the New Year, trickle or sublimation the latter being the optimum as you don't need to open the hive to the cold air, and at the same time give them a block, or part of, sugar fondant to keep them going until they start foraging again in the spring.
This is all very basic stuff and is all I think you need for the moment apart from getting the best beekeeping book on the market EVER - 'Guide to Bees & Honey' by Ted Hooper. I have several other books as well as my BKA library to digest and haven't looked anywhere else but Hoopers book for years.
Hope you find this a little useful and best of luck. There will no doubt be many contrary views. Pick the best?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don’t consider buying in a new queen now and again a waste of time at all. How else can you get to play with different bees?