So, what now?

[fenster]

Approaching the end of my first summer season as a novice beekeeper and so far it has not been an impressive record. I purchased a nucleus of bees on May 9th and installed them in a National style hive with an additional 5 new frames and a feeder for a few weeks until the weather improved. Within a month the new frames in the brood box were drawn so I put in a queen excluder and a shallow super instead of the feed box. The centre 5 frames of the super were drawn within a couple of weeks but then, just 7 weeks from installing the nucleus the bees swarmed. On the following weekly inspection there were a couple of capped queen cells (I must have missed that on previous inspection) and a bunch of badly behaved bees. I removed the queen cells because I wanted to purchase a new queen which I did. She was installed within days and the hive calmed down. At the same time I put a second brood box in with two frames from the existing and replaced the super. Now 2 months after that drama the hive is functioning normally with loads of capped brood but plenty of laying space in the bottom. They have drawn a couple more frames in the additional brood box but there is no sign that the queen ever goes there. The super, although mostly drawn before the swarm, is now deserted and I assume it will remain so until the space is needed and my worry is that it may never be.

It was pretty obvious even before the swarm that the single brood box was crowded but the extra space in the super did not prevent a swarm.The additional brood box now has a few frames which are very heavy with honey but no brood. I guess I have to leave that to them for winter. Now I don't know how to configure the hive for next year and when to do it. With one brood box I got a swarm; with two there is too much space to interest the bees in developing the super. I feel I ought to be going back to a single brood box some time but the population is too high right now.

 

[BugsInABox]

From what I’m picking up I don’t think you can rely on providing space to prevent swarming - it might help but depending on your bees’ innate tendency to swarm and the age/health of their queen and weather, flow strength and timing etc they can anyway. I’m guessing the advice you’ll get is to prepare them for winter by reducing the brood boxes to the minimum and ensure they have stores. The other decision to make about now is what to do about varoa treatment.

 

[fenster]

That was one of the reasons for purchasing a queen rather than letting them breed one. Still a lottery but the progeny of the queen which swarmed have by now been superseded. The other reason was to have a marked queen but I was disappointed in that because the purchased queen was unmarked.

 

[E&MBees]

Do you have any local beekeepers that could help look through the hive with you now that lockdown has eased a bit? I’m a newbie too, and have found this year really hard, but a number of forum members have kept me on the straight and narrow! I have taken photos and posted those as it helps with the advice you will get.
Good luck.

 

[BugsInABox]

That was one of the reasons for purchasing a queen rather than letting them breed one. Still a lottery but the progeny of the queen which swarmed have by now been superseded. The other reason was to have a marked queen but I was disappointed in that because the purchased queen was unmarked.

It will be even more of a lottery next year now you’re 50% towards locally adapted. . Next year as well as adding space keep an eye out for swarm indicators like charged queen cells next year. Having said that I thought I was doing all that this year and they still swarmed - ironically, on reflection, because I wasn’t giving them enough space.
Hopefully someone will be along in a bit to give advice about your brood box configuration going forward. What will you do about varroa treatments?

 

[Swarm]

Swarm prevention is all about colony management, nothing to do with the type of bee you keep. Your purchased queen could just as easily do the same, which is why I never advise novice beekeepers to buy queens because they are more likely to lose swarms.
You can lose swarms from double boxes too, it's just up to the beekeeper to be on top of things.

 

[BugsInABox]

Nothing to do with type of bees?

That’s contrary to almost all I read over 4-5 years of thinking about getting bees.

Surely little or less to do with?

Neil
BIAB

 

[fenster]

Swarm prevention is all about colony management, nothing to do with the type of bee you keep. Your purchased queen could just as easily do the same, which is why I never advise novice beekeepers to buy queens because they are more likely to lose swarms.
You can lose swarms from double boxes too, it's just up to the beekeeper to be on top of things.

I just joined this forum. I hope this is not a typical response.

 

[Swarm]

It will be even more of a lottery next year now you’re 50% towards locally adapted. .

You have been mislead if you think the above is true and if a Queen swarms this season there is nothing to suggest she will swarm the year after. Likewise, queens can happily sit in their hives for a couple of years before making swarm preps.
Lots of ginger swarms hanging in trees this year, and quite a few blue marked queens, that would fly in the eye of non swarmy buckfast claims.
Beekeeper error is the reason bees swarm.

 

[Swarm]

Sorry, Fenster but that is the truth. It can and does happen to anyone.

 

[fenster]

It will be even more of a lottery next year now you’re 50% towards locally adapted. . Next year as well as adding space keep an eye out for swarm indicators like charged queen cells next year. Having said that I thought I was doing all that this year and they still swarmed - ironically, on reflection, because I wasn’t giving them enough space.
Hopefully someone will be along in a bit to give advice about your brood box configuration going forward. What will you do about varroa treatments?

Thanks. Everything I have read suggests that space is the most likely reason for swarming. It was an issue in my case in retrospect but as far as I can see the other possibilities suggested did not apply. As to varroa there is no sign of infestation at alI and I have just started reading the contradictory arguments about prophylactic treatment or not.

 

[Murox]

@fenster- In "swarm season" ~ the period of high brood production often just prior to the start of a main nectar flow, their natural way of propagation, is often caused by brood chamber congestion, (and/or sometimes the age of the queen and her ability to produce enough pheromone to keep large numbers of bees together) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with super space.

Swarming during a strong nectar flow occurs because you have not provided appropriate SUPER SPACE AT THE TIME THE BEES NEEDED to store a lot nectar i.e. not enough DRAWN comb/supers when the bees needed them.
And sometimes bees just don't read the same books, they will often catch you out.

Generally, if there is a honey arc on the top of the brood frame , 7 or 8 frames of brood, they probably have about the right size of box - you can just super it.
You may not find a honey arc - it’s wall to wall brood, every cell right to the outside ~ you’ve got a nice prolific queen and she’s laying up every cell - give them another brood box, not a super.
If she’s a less prolific queen and you have got a honey arc, you don’t need another brood box because she isn’t likely to go up there. Put on a super. Even with several supers on they will find the space and fill the top box.

There are some great informative pdf files on the internet by Wally Shaw. I will try and dig out the links and post them.

 

[fiat500bee]

Thanks. Everything I have read suggests that space is the most likely reason for swarming. It was an issue in my case in retrospect but as far as I can see the other possibilities suggested did not apply. As to varroa there is no sign of infestation at alI and I have just started reading the contradictory arguments about prophylactic treatment or not.

Have you read Tim Rowe's book.......it's my Bible now (apart from this forum of course). He goes for big hives to reduce the urge to swarm but admits that once they have "decided" then that's what they will do. But he intervenes, as I am sure do many beekeepers, by keeping a close eye on queen cell formation and splitting the hive and sharing out the developing queens before they emerge. He says that some colonies are less swarmy than others and that those are the ones to breed from; I'm not sure if he has any instruction as to what to do for the super-swarmers....maybe he just lets them go?

The key thing is that swarming is a natural and healthy instinct shown by a thriving colony and it sounds like prevention might be as futile and fraught with challenges as is any attempt to keep any healthy creatures of reprocuctive age from attempting to reproduce.

 

[Murox]

This is the link to the WBKA info library. Have a good browse.

 

[fenster]

Sorry, Fenster but that is the truth. It can and does happen to anyone.

No reason to apologise. you didn't hurt my feelings but nor did you say anything useful.

 

[fenster]

@fenster- In "swarm season" ~ the period of high brood production often just prior to the start of a main nectar flow, their natural way of propagation, is often caused by brood chamber congestion, (and/or sometimes the age of the queen and her ability to produce enough pheromone to keep large numbers of bees together) IT HAS NOTHING TO DO with super space.

Swarming during a strong nectar flow occurs because you have not provided appropriate SUPER SPACE AT THE TIME THE BEES NEEDED to store a lot nectar i.e. not enough DRAWN comb/supers when the bees needed them.
And sometimes bees just don't read the same books, they will often catch you out.

Generally, if there is a honey arc on the top of the brood frame , 7 or 8 frames of brood, they probably have about the right size of box - you can just super it.
You may not find a honey arc - it’s wall to wall brood, every cell right to the outside ~ you’ve got a nice prolific queen and she’s laying up every cell - give them another brood box, not a super.
If she’s a less prolific queen and you have got a honey arc, you don’t need another brood box because she isn’t likely to go up there. Put on a super. Even with several supers on they will find the space and fill the top box.

There are some great informative pdf files on the internet by Wally Shaw. I will try and dig out the links and post them.

Many thanks.

 

[Erichalfbee]

As to varroa there is no sign of infestation at alI and I have just started reading the contradictory arguments about prophylactic treatment or not.

How do you know varroa is not a problem?
There is no such thing as prophylactic varroa treatment. You can’t give the bees anything to prevent them getting infested

 

[BugsInABox]

You have been mislead if you think the above is true and if a Queen swarms this season there is nothing to suggest she will swarm the year after. Likewise, queens can happily sit in their hives for a couple of years before making swarm preps.
Lots of ginger swarms hanging in trees this year, and quite a few blue marked queens, that would fly in the eye of non swarmy buckfast claims.
Beekeeper error is the reason bees swarm.

If you're saying it would have always been possible to prevent a swarm then I think we agree. 'Theory and practice' and 'wisdom after the fact' the issue for me this year (my 2nd) though.
Has non swarmy ever been taken to mean never swarm?

 

[drdrday]

Thanks. Everything I have read suggests that space is the most likely reason for swarming

I'm afraid the reason for swarming is always the bees' desire to reproduce. It's perfectly normal and something that you should always expect. There are things that we can do as beekeepers to try to put bees off of swarming 'just yet', such as providing more space, but it is always inevitable that you will have a colony that produces swarm cells. You can not expect to prevent the bees from swarming you can only do what you can to discourage them until they are absolutely determined and at that point you need to be on the ball to recognise and react to queen cells and do an artificial swarm to avoid losing your bees.

 

[redpig]

I just joined this forum. I hope this is not a typical response.

I think you may find that you have to take what comes at you, then weigh it and make up your own mind