Snelgrove 2 modified, no laying queen.

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DaveG23

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Today I went to perform the second step in the Wally shaw method. I can find no eggs and no sign of the queen in the original hive.

The a/s side had produced 4 small sealed qc's which I had already destroyed before moving to the original hive to find the queen.

So I assume that I lost the queen during the first manipulation. In the original hive there were quite a few queen cells torn down through the side of the cell, and 2 that could in theory have had virgins emerge. The bees in this hive were calm.

So I have 1 queen less hive, and 1 hive that either has the original queen who isn't laying or a virgin/newly mated queen.

So, advice please on what to do with the a/s side? I have no spare qc's but do have options to unite with a hive at this apiary or a hive at another apiary.

Hive at this apiary was on owerwintered nuc that was a bit slow to build up but now seems ok, but they could use the extra foragers. They have 7 frames of brood, box is not too full of bees.

Hive at the other apiary was my own small prime swarm, now houses for several weeks, queen laying happily, covering 5 frames, could move them to the A/S or vice versa.

Would it be better to move the a/s to a new apiary?
 
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I have had this method fail when there has been poor weather immediately following the first manipulation. I concluded that a number of flying bees didn't get out to forage so didn't return to the original location and swarmed with the queen. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing and next time you will look for the queen before destroying the QCs in the AS.
In my most recent effort I managed to transfer the queen into the AS on the first manipulation - she must have been on the underside of the crown board or something. She was happily laying away in the new box.
If you are sure the moved part is queenless reunite and leave the queen cells to produce a new queen. The larvae have been fed by young bees so you should get a perfectly good queen.
 
I have had this method fail when there has been poor weather immediately following the first manipulation. I concluded that a number of flying bees didn't get out to forage so didn't return to the original location and swarmed with the queen. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing and next time you will look for the queen before destroying the QCs in the AS.
In my most recent effort I managed to transfer the queen into the AS on the first manipulation - she must have been on the underside of the crown board or something. She was happily laying away in the new box.
If you are sure the moved part is queenless reunite and leave the queen cells to produce a new queen. The larvae have been fed by young bees so you should get a perfectly good queen.

Next time i will look for the queen first, although the QCs in the A/S side were very small. there were no QCs left in the original hive. So in the end I went to find a QC at another site where I have another hive where I am performing this method, they did not appreciate being opened up at 7 am, nor did the A/S back at the home site when I gave them the QC. Managed to get 10 stings in 1 hand between the 2 hives. My hand is slowly returning to normal size after looking like dr zoidberg for a day or two.

So I will check the parent hive soon to see if there are any signs of a queen, if not will give them a test frame.

It will soon be time to look at the second hive I have split using this method. I am expecting issues with that one as when I went to pinch a QC I suspect that it still has a lot of flying bees
 
Can someone remind what Wally modifies from the classic Snelgrove AS?

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Essentially, the position of the box containing the queen and then the timing of subsequent manipulations and managing queen cells. I stand to be corrected as I have never actually used method 2.
Have a good read on wet day - http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/snelgrove.html
and http://bridgendbeekeepers.co.uk/Doc...e-emptive-swarm-control----Wally-Shaw-pdf.pdf
There is plenty of info on the web about Wally Shaw. http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Simple-methods-of-making-Increase-Final-reduced1.pdf
 
Essentially, the position of the box containing the queen and then the timing of subsequent manipulations and managing queen cells. I stand to be corrected as I have never actually used method 2.
Have a good read on wet day - http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/snelgrove.html
and http://bridgendbeekeepers.co.uk/Doc...e-emptive-swarm-control----Wally-Shaw-pdf.pdf
There is plenty of info on the web about Wally Shaw. http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Simple-methods-of-making-Increase-Final-reduced1.pdf

Ta Mx...

I will try that next time. Good also as you don't need to find HM on initial manipulation which I like.

Can you or anyone help me about SnelB entrance movement? I'm still not getting it...

Open left had AS door and close right door and they leave and go to main entrance. Got that.
Then open bottom right lower and close top left and open top right so new bees now also go into bottom box.
What happens when you close the left completely and there are bees which know the exit and entrance? Do they figure out to go to the main entrance eventually?

what happens next when the rear door comes into play?
 
I have had this method fail when there has been poor weather immediately following the first manipulation. I concluded that a number of flying bees didn't get out to forage so didn't return to the original location and swarmed with the queen.

So to be clear, since the WS method is to move the entire original hive up (except for two frames of brood) you believe that there were a large number of foragers confined in the moved hive with the queen and they simply took off from the new position? Basically because they have not had enough time to relocate to the lower box?

If Wally is so certain this method works, but you guys have found this potential "confinement issue" then presumably if one performs it early on a good day with reasonable weather then the field bees will over the course of that day substantially have moved. If the vast majority have returned then the swarm issue shouldn't happen....

...right?
 
I've just tried this AS method for the first time. With a solitary hive. Touch wood it has worked. I realised that you burn your bridges when you remove emergency QCs in the AS. We did this then couldn't find the queen. It took another visit to find her.

The fact that they have destroyed the QCs in the parent colony suggests that they have a queen and she just hasn't started laying again. Mine did stop laying for a few days. There was little open brood after 9-10 days. I guess leave them till a virgin would have started laying.

As Wally Shaw suggests the AS is waiting for a queen to return so merging with the new swarm sounds like it would fit in with that plan.

Good luck.
 
So to be clear, since the WS method is to move the entire original hive up (except for two frames of brood) you believe that there were a large number of foragers confined in the moved hive with the queen and they simply took off from the new position? Basically because they have not had enough time to relocate to the lower box?

If Wally is so certain this method works, but you guys have found this potential "confinement issue" then presumably if one performs it early on a good day with reasonable weather then the field bees will over the course of that day substantially have moved. If the vast majority have returned then the swarm issue shouldn't happen....

...right?
Yes, that seemed to be the only reason for swarming I could think of. It was the only occasion I've had this method fail. A fellow beekeeper recently had his colony ball the queen when he reintroduced her. I thought one of mine had done that but she had just gone off lay for a couple of weeks.
 
Yes, that seemed to be the only reason for swarming I could think of. It was the only occasion I've had this method fail. A fellow beekeeper recently had his colony ball the queen when he reintroduced her. I thought one of mine had done that but she had just gone off lay for a couple of weeks.
Seems harsh...maybe your friend had more supers on so pheromones didnt mingle between boxes?

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