SIMPLIFIED National plans??

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I promise I have looked here and more broadly, but only a couple of false starts.

I use Nationals, and have started making them, but using pre-existing rails. I have a router (but no table) and these rails strike me as the most almighty faff. This is just a box, so someone in the intervening 70 years must have drawn up a simpler version. Any leads, or do I have to start from scratch in my proverbial garage?

 

[pargyle]

I promise I have looked here and more broadly, but only a couple of false starts.

I use Nationals, and have started making them, but using pre-existing rails. I have a router (but no table) and these rails strike me as the most almighty faff. This is just a box, so someone in the intervening 70 years must have drawn up a simpler version. Any leads, or do I have to start from scratch in my proverbial garage?

They are only made like this to reduce the weight of the hive .. and provide hand holds to lift the boxes. I read somewhere that the original hives were constructed from two solid pieces of timber with a hand hold just cut out in the middle of the outer layer. Would be a bit heavy though ..

However, you could just as easily use rectangular bits to an appropriate size to form the rails and rebates rather than routering out the rails to form the rebates.

The bottom rails are chamfered on the top edge so that the rain runs off .. instead glue an angled bead on the top to form the slope.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thanks, Philip. I have unearthed a bit of history here too http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19709. It seems one iteration had a hollow side, but that became "an ant trap". Given my weirdo ideas on [some] other fauna in a hive being beneficial, I am tempted to experiment... But understanding WHY the wretched pieces are so complicated is a big help. I'm thinking along those lines of section pieces; I can basically fabricate the bars more easily than mill them I think.

 

[ugcheleuce]

This is just a box, so someone in the intervening 70 years must have drawn up a simpler version. Any leads, or do I have to start from scratch in my proverbial garage?

If I understand correctly, the design used to be simpler, but at some stage woodworking machines became cheap enough yet precise enough to warrant a more complex hive design.

1. Spaarkast

The Dutch still use the old design in their "spaarkast" or "simplex" hives, which is essentially the same as the British National except for the position of beespace (top or bottom).

Plans:
http://www.imkerpedia.nl/wiki/index.php/Tekeningen_van_de_Spaarkast
More plans:
http://www.bijenhouden.nl/index.php/downloads/category/7-bijenkasten
And more:
http://www.bijenhouden.nl/beeld/p/pietjager/Bijenkast-LR.pdf
http://www.bijenhouden.nl/beeld/p/pietjager/Bijenkast-VA.pdf

2. Rose OSB

An even simpler design is the one used by the Rose OSB -- the walls that carry the lugs are simply solid profiled beams, and the other walls are made from multiplex, and you screw it all together. Google for the Rose hive.

Here's the Rose profile:

And here are two profiles that I designed, that I will try out some time later, when my current pile of wood is up:

...the idea being that this profile is used for the walls where the lugs are, and multiplex (or any other plank of any thickness you desire) is used for the other two sides, and screwed to the profiled walls.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Brilliant! just what I am looking for. Thanks.

 

[Tom Bick]

50mm thickness?? I think you should rethink that if it's for a national.

 

[itma]

…
I use Nationals, and have started making them, but using pre-existing rails. I have a router (but no table) and these rails strike me as the most almighty faff. This is just a box, so someone in the intervening 70 years must have drawn up a simpler version. Any leads, or do I have to start from scratch in my proverbial garage?

Mr Smith had the concept of using the same 'national' foundation, but shortening the lugs at the ends of the topbars, so that the walls didn't have to be either fat (and thus heavy) or complicated to make.
However, that makes the Smith Hive rectangular and therefore a bad match for national floors, supers, boards and (to a lesser extent) roofs.

However, there is a hive with short lugs and similarly simple box carpentry, which brood box can work with National floors, supers, boards and roofs.
But to get all that, it departs from using National 'deep' foundation.
It actually has about the same brood comb area as the 14x12, and is called the "Commercial" hive.
Should you like it, you can convert existing National brood boxes to take Commercial brood frames (but just 10 of them) using a "Hamilton Converter".

 

[ugcheleuce]

50mm thickness?? I think you should rethink that if it's for a national.

The 50 mm is just a guideline -- what's important is the 30 mm. You can replace the 50 mm with anything you like: make it shorter if you want the box to fit underneath a telescoping cover, or make it longer if you want more insulation and don't use telescoping covers. Also one would have to adjust the measurements above and below... these drawings were not intended to be for "British Nationals" exactly.

 

[Tom Bick]

Ok then that’s fine as you are happy the boxes will be different sizes. If you were to go with 45mm timber this may work out better and also a standard thickness for off the shelf PAR timber as the only way you will get 50mm will be from sawn timber or specially machined.

 

[ugcheleuce]

If you were to go with 45mm timber this may work out better and also a standard thickness for off the shelf PAR timber as the only way you will get 50mm will be from sawn timber or specially machined.

I've found that (in my country of residence) it also depends on the type of wood. Some woods are available in slightly thicker sizes, but you're right that a full 50 cm would be hard to come by for most woods unless you're using raw timber (which is not a bad thing in this case because the bees won't care).

The Dutch boxes have a lug rest of 30 mm, but I see that Nationals have a lug rest of 32 mm, is that right? And the thinnest part of the National wall at the lugs is 11 mm thick, am I right (at the very top of the wall)? This would mean that you'd have to use 43 mm instead of 50 mm for the National, I think.

 

[REDWOOD]

My father-in-law was a carpenter and promised to make my hives for me when I started out until I presented him with the plans, his reply was " ..............." well let's just say I made them my self lol, I have got to say although complicated they are a great design in more ways than one

 

[Tom Bick]

This would mean that you'd have to use 43 mm instead of 50 mm for the National, I think.

44 or 45 will be better

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I've thought of Commercials, and of 14x12, but I've got off to a really good start on 8.5" nationals all round; double brood and "deep" supers, so I think I'm going to persist for at least a while. I think the answer for now is as pargyle was suggesting, making up nationals but replacing the bars with two simple sections. It should be pretty straightforward.

 

[bontbee]

Thanks, Philip. I have unearthed a bit of history here too http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=19709. It seems one iteration had a hollow side, but that became "an ant trap". Given my weirdo ideas on [some] other fauna in a hive being beneficial, I am tempted to experiment... But understanding WHY the wretched pieces are so complicated is a big help. I'm thinking along those lines of section pieces; I can basically fabricate the bars more easily than mill them I think.

I still have a couple of National boxes. I have had ants - and bees - in the gap between the double walls, but that was my fault 'cos I was too slack to replace the blocks of wood that sealed that gap when they fell out.

I'd go for the modified national any day, the main reason being the handholds. Why anyone would design a hive the size of a commercial, langstroth etc, let alone a national brood, with tiny recessed "finger tip" holds is beyond me - must have been someone with very strong fingers...

I still use them in emergencies, though!

 

[ugcheleuce]

44 or 45 will be better

The main thing that anyone trying out this design has to consider is whether the box will fit under a telescoping cover. What is the space between the cover and the walls in a National hive? For the Dutch variant, it's quite a tight fit (2-3 mm, I think).

Yesterday I bought myself two telescoping covers for the local variant, and although I thought that I had made some of my boxes of a compatible size, the covers didn't fit... by a margin of about 3 mm. Of course, that tight margin only applies if you're using tight-fitting telescoping hive parts. So last night I cracked open all my self-made boxes (thankfully I made only three of them to date, although I have planking for 15) and I'm going to have to trim them down a bit before regluing and rescrewing. Because I'm currently making my boxes using a "profiled wall" design, making the hive smaller isn't complicated: you just cut it.

 

[irishguy]

When making mine I just cut thr handrails flush to the box then screwed instead of making the cut that sits into the box. This is the lazy man's way of doing it and will do the same job

 

[protheroe]

When making mine I just cut thr handrails flush to the box then screwed instead of making the cut that sits into the box. This is the lazy man's way of doing it and will do the same job

i do this with the ply hives but not with cedar.the cedar hives get fully jointed

 

[itma]

I've thought of Commercials, and of 14x12, but I've got off to a really good start on 8.5" nationals all round; double brood and "deep" supers, so I think I'm going to persist for at least a while. I think the answer for now is as pargyle was suggesting, making up nationals but replacing the bars with two simple sections. It should be pretty straightforward.

The 14x12 is constructed exactly as a national.
My reason for suggesting commercial was the simplified construction that you were after combined with significant national compatibility,
Just a suggestion.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The 14x12 is constructed exactly as a national.
My reason for suggesting commercial was the simplified construction that you were after combined with significant national compatibility,
Just a suggestion.

Yes, thanks, I got that and appreciate the suggestion. I am starting out and certainly want to try various configurations. Thanks again.