shook swarms

[mrbees2]

I have been reading a lot lately about shook swarms as a means of controlling disease, and wondered what your thoughts are on the subject - not sure if it would be beneficial, and how long it would take the bees to recover and get back to full production. any comments please.

 

[VEG]

lots of posts on this if you search, you will get mixed views on any beekeeping practices though lol

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have been reading a lot lately about shook swarms as a means of controlling disease, any comments please.

Can be useful if you have a light EFB infection.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Our RBI thinks shook swarms are a good idea, and it's something we will probably do as a quick way of getting at least one of our colonies into brand new hives.

It's also one way of dealing with varroa, because all the mites are meant to be left behind in the brood cells. It seems a bit of a waste of bees, but some people think it's worth it.

Haven't done shook swarm, but we're assured by everybody we've spoken to about it, that the bees react positively and build new comb very quickly. They do need syrup to keep them going, to make up for lost stores.

 

[Tim1606]

We shook swarm all our colonies each year, and have noticed that our colonies have always built up well after it.

Feeding is essential to get the comb drawn if there is no flow on. I have heard of some beeks who do it during the June dearth but have never done it then.

 

[Finman]

We shook swarm all our colonies each year,

Only sick needs healing, said Jesus.

AFB is a disease where shook swarm on foundations are used.
I do not know other diseases where it is worth to do. To cut swarming, but it is not a disease.

 

[mrbees2]

o.k. thanks. so, and bear with me on this, all the brood eggs larvae etc in the old frames are then destroyed (would you freeze ?) Also the timing must be quite critical - my hives are in an orchard - so I am guesing I should do this just before the blossom comes out.

 

[Finman]

o.k. thanks. so, and bear with me on this, all the brood eggs larvae etc in the old frames are then destroyed (would you freeze ?) Also the timing must be quite critical - my hives are in an orchard - so I am guesing I should do this just before the blossom comes out.

Do you mean AFB or....

All old combs must be destroyed. The wooden frames you may save and boil in 3% lye.

But however you save the bees when you give a clean foundation hive and shake the bees in from of the hive.

******************

EFB will be healed when you get a new queen which has resistancty to the disease.

Chalkbrood will be healed when you get a new queen from resistant stock.

Even if you heal EFB and chalkbrood, the non resistant genes will stay in your stock.

Concept is: rear extra queens. Kill all queens which show even slight tendency to disease. In couple of years you will get rid off non resistant genes.

******

Nosema will be vanish in Spring without shaking. Of course if the bees have made the frames dirty with poo, give to them clean box and clean combs.
Some bee strains show bigger tendency to get nosema than others.


.

 

[Arfermo]

Our RBI thinks shook swarms are a good idea, and it's something we will probably do as a quick way of getting at least one of our colonies into brand new hives.

It's also one way of dealing with varroa, because all the mites are meant to be left behind in the brood cells. It seems a bit of a waste of bees, but some people think it's worth it.

Haven't done shook swarm, but we're assured by everybody we've spoken to about it, that the bees react positively and build new comb very quickly. They do need syrup to keep them going, to make up for lost stores.

Yeah but..... After any swarm type procedure it is an opportunity to have a go at the mites that are on the bees themselves, either by oxalic (my preference) or a single pack of Apiguard or similar for a max of 2 weeks.

Arfermo knows!!

 

[Arfermo]

o.k. thanks. so, and bear with me on this, all the brood eggs larvae etc in the old frames are then destroyed (would you freeze ?) Also the timing must be quite critical - my hives are in an orchard - so I am guesing I should do this just before the blossom comes out.

The point of shook swarming is often to get rid of EFB potential but more usually to operate a comb change cycle of 2 years or 3 at most as it gets rid of old comb blackened by dirty feet and anything else that could become nasty. For that reason as said above, old comb must be disposed of and freezing is not the way to go.

 

[Finman]

Our RBI thinks shook swarms are a good idea, and it's something we will probably do as a quick way of getting at least one of our colonies into brand new hives..

You should renew your combs all the time and not arrange revolution every now and then

.

It's also one way of dealing with varroa, because all the mites are meant to be left behind in the brood cells..

In this situation you should rethink what you are doing.

There are a Duch method where the hive has been separated to artificial parst and brood part.
Then all mites are free in swarm part and they are easy to kill.

Brood part emerges and again. mites are free to be killed.

One way is to make a queenless colony for 2 weeks in main yield. The give foragers better without larvae.

before you give a new laying queen, make a false swarm and kill all free mites.
The queen starts to lay winter bees "on clean table".
The rest of hive has brood. They emerge soon and you are able to kill almost all mites. Then join the bees to queen.

But this is wotrh to do when things are bad.

In Dutch method they put one larva frame into the hive and mites will go there.
I have done this but the hive died because all mites did not went into brood.
The yield season was over and why I did not used oxalic acid in August? The hive did not had brood. It would be easy to clean the mites from hive.

If you make a shook swarm or artificial swarm for varroa, use oxalic acid to kill mites.
.
.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

From FERA's leaflet on it:
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadDocument.cfm?id=203


In trials to control European Foul Brood in honeybee colonies, it has been shown to be
beneficial to shake bees onto new foundation and then destroying the old combs. Trials
indicate that it may also be beneficial in controlling Nosema spp., chalk brood and varroa
mite populations. Colonies treated in this way often become the strongest and most
productive in an apiary. Some beekeepers are now using this system to replace all the old
brood combs in a beehive within a single procedure

of course, doesn't stop it being controversial

 

[Finman]

From FERA's leaflet on it:
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadDocument.cfm?id=203


In trials to control European Foul Brood in honeybee colonies, it has been shown to be
beneficial to shake bees onto new foundation and then destroying the old combs. Trials
indicate that

What ever DEFRA writes, other countries like USA recommend queen shanging.

That is very starnge that queen change works in other countiers, but not in UK. I do not keep DEFRA as a quell of knowledge. They have now whole day researchers behind them and they are too timid to be some opinion. n hard cases responsibily is left to 2 hive owner. 10 alternatives and no solution what is good.

For example MAAREC in USA is a consortium of 6 beekeeping universities.
USA has quite much more beekeeping universities.

USA: In some cases, European foulbrood can be eliminated by requeening colonies with a young queen. Requeening accomplishes two things: it gives the colony a more prolific queen and it provides a time lag between brood cycles that allows the house bees to remove diseased larvae. In advanced cases, the antibiotic Terramycin can be fed as treatment for the disease.

 

[Finman]

.
Notrh Carolina State University

DISEASE MANAGEMENT GUIDELINES FOR HONEY BEE
COLONIES IN NORTH CAROLINA, 2007

http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/2.01 copy.pdf

Means of prevention  EFB is largely a disease caused by stress. Thus maintaining a strong, healthy colony is the best prevention of the disease.

Here is Austalian letter 2010 what to do with EFB

Things seems to be bad there because "EFB is the worst bee disease in Australia"

But EFB existence seems to be a complex thing

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/333388/European-foulbrood-and-its-control.pdf

MY OPINION IS AND LONG TIME (50y ) EXPERIENCE that do not live with disease. Get rid off EFB. It is easy. It doe not make long living spores on box surfaces.
Change your bee yard genepool to better. I do not know where you get it but try.
When you put a new queen in contaminated hive, and if it will be healed, you have then a disease resistant individual there.

.
I had 40 years ago Caucasian bees. When they mated with European Black, the crossing had often EFB. It allways vanished when I put a new queen. But afterwards thinking I did not understand much about diseass. Mongrel brood areas were in those days like shooted with shot gun. Bees just lived with their diseases. When I got commerial queens, the diseases vanished.






.

 

[oliver90owner]

If you make a shook swarm or artificial swarm for varroa, use oxalic acid to kill mites.

There are several alternatives, of course. Formic acid, thymol, sugar rolling and likely others. All with first capped brood culled. No problem at all for the hobby beek inspecting on a weekly basis, and just as effective.

 

[Finman]

.

This brood comb does not seem healthy.
The age of comb is really too old.

Yes, and I can se living and dead partly eaten larvae in combs!!!

The race seems to be Black Devil. A brown thorax and round abdomen.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Also the timing must be quite critical - my hives are in an orchard - so I am guesing I should do this just before the blossom comes out.

I don't know the answer, but some sites give build up timings of 'so many weeks' before flowering so my guess is that 'just before the blossom comes out' might be a bit late. And I can't imagine any flowers opening according to the date on a calendar either, so it would be hard to predict.


Edit:
The only reference I can find in a hurry is this http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/20080611_63 which says that

Shook swarm group colonies were smaller than those of the control group in terms of worker bee population, brood area and honey yield (P<0.01),were similar in built comb area (P>0.05) and greater in terms of wax production (P<0.01). Ninety five per cent of the comb needed by the colonies was built within 45 – 50 days, at an average cost of 19 – 20 kg of honey. Control colonies used an average of 79g of wax to build comb on each frame of foundation, compared to 183g in the shaken colonies. Honey production to comply with pure blossom and organic standards may be possible using the shook swarm technique, but the productivity level is 55 – 60% lower than with standard beekeeping methods.​

 

[Finman]

.
"but the productivity level is 55 – 60% lower than with standard beekeeping methods."

What ever the disease control method is, it should keep youself on highest production level all the time.

If control system disturbs incomes, you should change the method.


If we look that normal income is 100 money.
Production costs are 80 money. Profit is then 20% and 20 money.

If you production cost are 80 money and incomes 60, your netto is - 20 (-25%)

So the more you nurse hives, the more losses.

You cannot stay on market with these figures.

 

[Finman]

I don't know the answer, but some sites give build up timings of 'so many weeks' before flowering so my guess is that 'just before the blossom comes out' might be a bit late.

And I can't imagine any flowers opening according to the date on a calendar either, so it would be hard to predict.

T]

My opinion is that I have no change to know, when the main yield comes in.
That I know that if it does not come between 26.6 - 10.8., it will come not at all.

I know quite well when the flowers bloom but when weathers are favorable to nectar flow, it is impossible to know. I do not know either, how much flowers are. Raspberry may have 100 units flowers or 15. It depends on rains.

Hives must be ready to hit any time.
.
If hive has 20% brood losses for chalkbrood, inside breeding, varroa or something, which kill full size larvae, the hive cannot get surpluss yield at all.
Workers time goes to brood nursing .

.

 

[Tim1606]

Only sick needs healing, said Jesus.

AFB is a disease where shook swarm on foundations are used.
I do not know other diseases where it is worth to do. To cut swarming, but it is not a disease.

AFB in this country is notifyable to the inspectors and they would destroy the colony.
They would shook swarm to reduce EFB if it is mild.

I'll stick with what our regional bee inspector has advised.

Anyway, done at the right time of the year it also reduces varroa mite count, so i'm happy with that.

What happens in your country when AFB is found?