Shook swarms - all bees, every spring

[Ian123]

A dear friend Lorain Stevens was advised by the powers that be to shook swarm.that was early spring,l think l remember twelve colonies,young brood destroyed,it was a disaster.end of May strong colonies last year it might have worked.l just offer this for new beekeepers.

If you’re suggesting stronger colonies would cope better and “it may have worked” you could be correct. But the simple question is why!!
There is nothing a shook swarm achieves that can not be easily and more systematically accomplished with other procedures.

 

[jeff33]

Perhaps advocated through incompetence, lack of knowledge of bees behaviour and aims of specific manipulations....or simply a complete disregard for bees welfare and life!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A dear friend Lorain Stevens was advised by the powers that be to shook swarm.that was early spring,l think l remember twelve colonies,young brood destroyed,it was a disaster.end of May strong colonies last year it might have worked.l just offer this for new beekeepers.

There is never a 'good' time to shook swarm - it is a totally pointless and destructive operation that is of no benefit to the bees it keeps getting dragged out of the dark ages by the usual crowd, and to be honest should be consigned to the rubbish bin of beekeeping history.

 

[plain_hunt]

There is never a 'good' time to shook swarm - it is a totally pointless and destructive operation that is of no benefit to the bees it keeps getting dragged out of the dark ages by the usual crowd, and to be honest should be consigned to the rubbish bin of beekeeping history.

I’m pleased you’ve said this. I tried shook swarm once - never again! I didn’t like it, the bees didn’t like it. I’ve gone back to a Bailey comb change, far easier and gentler on the bees, they move when they want to.
I was encouraged to use it by another beekeeper who uses it all the time, she said it worked well and the colonies built up quicker. Not in my world it didn’t.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

There is never a 'good' time to shook swarm - it is a totally pointless and destructive operation that is of no benefit to the bees it keeps getting dragged out of the dark ages by the usual crowd, and to be honest should be consigned to the rubbish bin of beekeeping history.

Can't argue with that but it's amazing how many things just don't seem to settle into the dustbin but keep on emerging.

 

[user 20833]

I did my first ever 'shook swarm' last season. It was an inherited colony of 'local bees' (evil things) in a National hive, and I run Langs. They had been completely left alone for a couple of years. I shook them into a new Langstroth box on 19th April, and a week later it was pretty well all drawn out and the little buggers were thriving. They got re-queened a bit later and will hopefully do well this year.

I have never understood the BBKA shook swarm/Bailey comb change obsession. But it does give people something to write about, so maybe that's it.

 

[Ian123]

I did my first ever 'shook swarm' last season. It was an inherited colony of 'local bees' (evil things) in a National hive, and I run Langs. They had been completely left alone for a couple of years. I shook them into a new Langstroth box on 19th April, and a week later it was pretty well all drawn out and the little buggers were thriving. They got re-queened a bit later and will hopefully do well this year.

I have never understood the BBKA shook swarm/Bailey comb change obsession. But it does give people something to write about, so maybe that's it.

Get a bit of ply put the national on and draw around, then put lang box on and draw around. Cut around outside line of both boxes. Then cut middle out where both boxes correspond. Stick on top of your national and your lang on top. Once the queen and bees move up slide an excluder in what ever side of ply works best. No more shook swarm required and you’ve saved a complete cycle of bees/brood. Keep the board you never know you may need it in the future.

 

[user 20833]

Get a bit of ply put the national on and draw around, then put lang box on and draw around. Cut around outside line of both boxes. Then cut middle out where both boxes correspond. Stick on top of your national and your lang on top. Once the queen and bees move up slide an excluder in what ever side of ply works best. No more shook swarm required and you’ve saved a complete cycle of bees/brood. Keep the board you never know you may need it in the future.

hahaha. Oh, you're serious?

 

[ericbeaumont]

hahaha. Oh, you're serious?

Why is an effective plan so funny?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Get a bit of ply put the national on and draw around, then put lang box on and draw around. Cut around outside line of both boxes. Then cut middle out where both boxes correspond. Stick on top of your national and your lang on top. Once the queen and bees move up slide an excluder in what ever side of ply works best. No more shook swarm required and you’ve saved a complete cycle of bees/brood. Keep the board you never know you may need it in the future.

I have Paynes/maisemore nuc to National uniting boards. I know I could just move the frames into a full size box to unite and that's what I usually do but I still have the boards and they work well

 

[madasafish]

hahaha. Oh, you're serious?

I use that method very effectively.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Get a bit of ply put the national on and draw around, then put lang box on and draw around. Cut around outside line of both boxes. Then cut middle out where both boxes correspond. Stick on top of your national and your lang on top. Once the queen and bees move up slide an excluder in what ever side of ply works best. No more shook swarm required and you’ve saved a complete cycle of bees/brood. Keep the board you never know you may need it in the future.

I've done the same in reverse to move a colony up from a lang into a national.

 

[user 20833]

I use that method very effectively.

For balance, I gave an example of when a shook swarm is not so terrible:

- nearly swarm season
- inherited bees/kit that is old and the wrong size for me
- horrible bees who’s greatest contribution to my apiary would be to get some comb drawn

It took 5 minutes, worked perfectly, and now they have a nice queen.

The method kindly suggested will work, I’m sure, but for me it was far from an improvement, and a lot of faff.

 

[Ian123]

For balance, I gave an example of when a shook swarm is not so terrible:

- nearly swarm season
- inherited bees/kit that is old and the wrong size for me
- horrible bees who’s greatest contribution to my apiary would be to get some comb drawn

It took 5 minutes, worked perfectly, and now they have a nice queen.

The method kindly suggested will work, I’m sure, but for me it was far from an improvement, and a lot of faff.

No It’s still pretty terrible!, but I take your point it works!
As to swarm season it’s only a benifit because you’re knocking them back so much by destroying bees they are not likely to want to swarm. They still end up with a new box to draw!

As to getting the bees on your desired set up, the board does that!

Horrible bees……..using a board there’s no shaking and clouds of aggressive bees.

5 minutes…..I could cut the board in five minutes and have it on the hive.

There would be a cost for the board but even if you can’t blag a bit from local builders or find something in a skip B&Q sell small sheets for about £14…

I think we are all just making the point that it’s a procedure that can easily be replaced. I wouldn’t class any or myself that have commented in the snow flake brigade but needless destruction of bees doesn’t sit right.

 

[user 20833]

No It’s still pretty terrible!, but I take your point it works!
As to swarm season it’s only a benifit because you’re knocking them back so much by destroying bees they are not likely to want to swarm. They still end up with a new box to draw!

As to getting the bees on your desired set up, the board does that!

Horrible bees……..using a board there’s no shaking and clouds of aggressive bees.

5 minutes…..I could cut the board in five minutes and have it on the hive.

There would be a cost for the board but even if you can’t blag a bit from local builders or find something in a skip B&Q sell small sheets for about £14…

I think we are all just making the point that it’s a procedure that can easily be replaced. I wouldn’t class any or myself that have commented in the snow flake brigade but needless destruction of bees doesn’t sit right.

Oh well, you must have more time than me. Each to their own. Interesting that you have proclaimed what I did to the bees to be pretty terrible. Have you been sneaking into my apiary?

 

[Jon Seddon]

I think my (now ex) mentor must be reading the BBKA magazine as he recommends dusting with icing sugar and says oa vape is illegal no discussion, Hence my seeking opinions from professional keepers and experienced hobbyists on this site. I joined but only for the insurance as I've been offered the use of some land as an out apiary which will hopefully allow me to make increase to a comfortable number of hives, enough to get me out of trouble if any should perish and to provide me and family with plenty of honey.

OA unless a licensed treatment such as Api bioxal is illegal as a varroa treatment.
However, it is not illegal as a disinfectant, in the same way as thymol.
That’s my my understanding.

 

[Xander]

OA unless a licensed treatment such as Api bioxal is illegal as a varroa treatment.
However, it is not illegal as a disinfectant, in the same way as thymol.
That’s my my understanding.

Yes I know the situation with APIbioxal but he just thinks any oa vape including that isn't allowed.
He's not read anything in at least ten years I think so still thinking icing sugar but only if they get varroa. We all know they already have varroa but he seems to think his 2 hives don't.
It was he showed me knocking back QCs to stop them swarming.
Hence I need a new mentor.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It was he showed me knocking back QCs to stop them swarming.
Hence I need a new mentor.

in a choice between him and no mentor at all, I think the second option would be more beneficial - the only use he seems to be is to hold your smoker for you - and he'd probably even bugger that up.

 

[pargyle]

OA unless a licensed treatment such as Api bioxal is illegal as a varroa treatment.
However, it is not illegal as a disinfectant, in the same way as thymol.
That’s my my understanding.

Oh dear ... you would probably be hard pushed to convince the VMD and the various inspectorates that that premise holds water.

It's a ridiculous situation (which appears to be prevalent only in the UK) that generic OA cannot be used for the control of varroa. There is no logic to this and the reality for the hobbty beekeeper is that you would be very unlucky to be picked on for using generic OA. For the Bee Farmer it's obviously a much bigger risk.

If there are concerns, rather than claiming you are using generic OA for 'cleaning the hive' the safer route is to purchase some Api Bioxal so you have an invoice for the legal product and use it ....It's only about £12 if you web search. Of course, I would be the last person to suggest that you infringe the law but I'm not sure how a prosecution based on OA residue in the hive could be brought and whether it is even possible to establish whether any OA residue is left from Apibioxal or 'cleaning' with generic OA.

As has often been said...The law is an *** at times.

 

[Jules59]

I'm struggling to envisage a situation wherein a hobbyist would be prosecuted for using non-Apibioxal OA.
Anyone know of such an event ?

Ive had several visits from the SBI in recent years - my VMD record has never been requested.