Scrub queen cells

[noumenon]

I got a new hive this year with a 2022 queen. I wasn't happy with the condition of the comb, so did a shook swarm onto fresh foundation. They've built up well this year and I put a super on at the start of June. To my surprise they decided to produce queen cells on 1st July. I did an artificial swarm, keeping just one frame of stores, plus the nuc - so I am sure there was no eggs or brood left behind. A week later they had pulled out 5 frames of foundation. Two weeks later and three frames are packed with sealed brood. However on the middle cell, I found a cluster of 4 small open queen cells. The larvae were around a week old, but there was little royal jelly and just watery food surrounding them, so scrub queens at best. I wasn't sure what to do, so knocked them down.

I don't think it's supercedure as the queen is a great layer. I don't see why they would still want to swarm as the weather hasn't been great (mixed sun/rain and heading into the 'June gap' in Northern Ireland). What are the bees up to? What's my best course of action over the next few inspections? Many thanks.

 

[Ian123]

A picture would help!…..

 

[noumenon]

Sorry, I didn't take any pics.

I essentially did a Pagden split, but kept the original brood box (with fresh foundation). I wonder if maybe using that original box has meant the bees haven't been convinced they've swarmed yet.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I essentially did a Pagden split, but kept the original brood box (with fresh foundation). I wonder if maybe using that original box has meant the bees haven't been convinced they've swarmed yet.

Pagdens have an unfortunate reputation for failing and, once they have the raw material to build queen cells, the bees will swarm anyway

 

[noumenon]

Perhaps, you might like to suggest what to do now?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

you've torn them down now, I would inspect again in a few days and see what they've been up to.

 

[noumenon]

How long should I wait? Presumably that determines if I see nothing, queen cups or queen cells? What is my best course of action in each case?

Forgive the questions, I am after all a beginner looking to learn and I would be grateful if you could share your experience and wisdom so I can learn.

 

[Erichalfbee]

How long should I wait? Presumably that determines if I see nothing, queen cups or queen cells? What is my best course of action in each case?

I presume on last inspection the queen was there?
Look in tomorrow or the next day and tell us what you find.

 

[noumenon]

The forecast is very poor the next few days, but if I get a window I'll certainly have a look.

Yes, the queen was present. Lots of capped brood and larvae seen at all stages, so she is laying well.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Then if she has room they are probably ok

 

[ericbeaumont]

they decided to produce queen cells on 1st July

How many?

week later they had pulled out 5 frames of foundation

Two weeks later and three frames are packed with sealed brood

A good test for swarming intent is to give them foundation; if they mean to swarm, they won't draw it. More likely that they mean to supersede (but confusingly, may just as easily swarm on them at that time of year).

 

[noumenon]

They produced 3 good queen cells on 1st July.

When I did the artificial swarm on 1st July, they were left with 1 frame of stores and the remainder of foundation.
1 week later, they'd pulled out 5 frames of foundation
2 weeks later, they'd still only pulled out 5 frames with great coverage of capped brood on 4 frames. This is where I found 4 scrub cells, which unsure what to do, I knocked them down.

The queen seems to be laying very well with good pattern and coverage over most of the frame. She's a 2 year old queen.

That's one thing I couldn't quite get my head around is swarming vs supersedure - are you making a judgement based on how the queen is laying? Are there other clues to look out for?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's one thing I couldn't quite get my head around is swarming vs supersedure - are you making a judgement based on how the queen is laying? Are there other clues to look out for?

Queen performance is one, number of QCs is another - if superseding, they don't create many.
Don't listen to the trumpets who go on about position (such as located in the middle of the frame) that stems from a mantra chanted by those who can't think in three dimensions although, frequently they are positioned at the periphery of the brood nest to avoid the old queen detecting them, so often found tucked between the comb and the side bars, so basically, anywhere!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ll echo that.
I have one colony superseding. There are 6 frames of brood in all stages but fewer eggs than I would suspect. The queen was still there when I found ONE capped queen cell on an outside frame just above the bottom bars where you would expect a swarm cell.
A week later the old queen is still laying sporadically and the capped cell is open.

 

[drex]

Supercedure cells tend to be much fewer in number and all of the same age ( that I find useful). I have lost a swarm on 2 cells of similar age. Bees will be bees.

 

[Swarm]

I have a queen in her fourth season, found charged cells in May, only a few so popped her in a nuc. Since then I've found two or three cells on almost every inspection so left them to supersede if that was their intention. The queen was still present last week and no cells but of course there could be a daughter running around in there as well.

 

[ericbeaumont]

unsure what to do, I knocked them down

Reasonable decision.

swarming vs supersedure - are you making a judgement based on how the queen is laying?

Yes, laying pattern and volume, but also the time of year will guide your actions. If 3 or fewer QCs are found, supersedure is the likely intent, but during the first half of the season treat them as swarm cells, because bees may easily take the opportunity and go.

On the other hand, if I found supersedure QCs this week I would not expect a swarm and would let them get on with it, perhaps harvesting a good surplus sealed QC into a strong nuc, to counter wasp attack.

 

[noumenon]

I checked today and there was one queen cup. The queen is there and she's laid extensively on the available cells (almost to the edges of the frames with little/no space for stores). Though they're not pulling out any new frames, they have converted the frontmost frame from stores to brood. I've moved them back one frame and added a frame of foundation at the very front.

So is the general consensus to let them supercede if they charge the queen cup? Or any other course of action to consider?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Queen cups are built all the time. They mean nothing
The instant they are charged they become queen cells.

 

[Swarm]

I checked today and there was one queen cup. The queen is there and she's laid extensively on the available cells (almost to the edges of the frames with little/no space for stores). Though they're not pulling out any new frames, they have converted the frontmost frame from stores to brood. I've moved them back one frame and added a frame of foundation at the very front.

So is the general consensus to let them supercede if they charge the queen cup? Or any other course of action to consider?

They will only draw wax for good reason and with decent income from a flow or feed. The queen is new and she needs to lay some nurse bees first to allow for steady expansion, she can only lay what the bees can nurse. They may even create a cell or two, that's just uncertainty and they are often torn down. I'll break down supersedure cells with new queens but if the theme continues I leave them to it.