Safety of calcium chloride as a honey desiccant - any chemists out there?

[Speybee]

Contrary to what I said above I used CaCl2 on another batch of honey last week - solid bucket honey warmed at 35C for 24 hours prior to preparing soft-set. Again there was a layer of scum. I got rid of this easily by laying on cling film then removing it.
Worked a treat

Just curious, but if you use this chemical do you list it on your honey label, seeing it’s listed on other food products such as tinned legumes?

 

[Speybee]

QUOTE=beebopper;651517]Where do you get this from. Conc (pure) HCl is a liquid.


It is this person who needs some chemistry education. Hydrogen Chloride is a GAS. It is NOT a liquid at ambient temperature! It is a covalent compound and, as such, is unable to dissociate into ions.

I just checked wiki for its boiling point It is -85 Celsius!

Only when it dissolves in water - ie in aqueous solution - it forms HYDROCHLORIC ACID.

Obviously there will be water vapour in the atmosphere above honey, but I doubt that much, if any hydrogen chloride can be produced for the simple reason that Calcium oxide is basic and any free water would convert the hydogen chloride to hydrochloric acid which would then react with the base. There is the added problem that if that reaction occurs, then the calcium chloride (the drying agent) is no longer there!

And, OMG, there is far more calcium chloride used in ballasted tyres around the world than the small amount being used as a desiccant in laboratory experiments.

The effective way to trap water vapour from experiments, in my days of checking for labile tritium, was to collect any water in the gas stream by freezing. -196 Celsius did the job quite adequately and was the standard method employed. Not quite like the basic school classroom experiments, eh?

I think it is you who needs to go back to school. In my day, you would likely be stood in the corner wearing the dunce’s hat.

Just a wee question from a novice beekeeper....why on Earth is anyone adding the chemical Calcium Chloride to a natural product such as honey?
If it’s to take off water then should you be extracting uncapped honey?

 

[Amari]

Just curious, but if you use this chemical do you list it on your honey label, seeing it’s listed on other food products such as tinned legumes?

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...y-chemists-out-there.43370/page-3#post-722617
The CaCl2 crystals are in a canister with perforations lying on the bottom of the warming cabinet, below the honey buckets. Water vapour from the honey percolates through the perforations and is absorbed by the crystals. None of the chemical enters the honey.

 

[Speybee]

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...y-chemists-out-there.43370/page-3#post-722617
The CaCl2 crystals are in a canister with perforations lying on the bottom of the warming cabinet, below the honey buckets. Water vapour from the honey percolates through the perforations and is absorbed by the crystals. None of the chemical enters the honey.

Thanks for explaining this

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Beebopper - A few comments on your unpleasant, unhelpful and inaccurate little series of posts.

Pure HCl is a gas and properly called hydrogen chloride - it is a molecular compound which reacts with water to form hydrochloric acid. Which is a liquid. Perhaps this is the cause of your confusion? In the gaseous form it is highly soluble and is unlikely to be released in any use of Calcium Chloride.

Anhydrous Calcium Chloride is an irritant. Hydrated Calcium Chloride is entirely safe but would be no use as a desiccant.

You quote a link to a school safety site - this is what the link YOU provided (but clearly haven't read properly) says about Anhydrous Calcium Chloride:-

Calcium chloride Anhydrous / hydrated solid & conc.
solution (if 0.9M or more) IRRITANT
WARNING: causes skin and serious eye irritation and may cause
respiratory irritation. Anhydrous calcium chloride can cause water
to boil; often used as a drying agent. Approved food additive E509


Amari - take Beebopper's 'authoritative' response with a large pinch of salt.

Thinking back to my days as works engineer of a glucose refinery. We used to buy in 20 ton loads of (food grade???) Hydrochloric acid at 36% concentration which if not enclosed the fuming of HCl gas off the surface was extremely noticeable. Actually it was bloody unpleasant and the merest whiff was sufficient to alert of any possible leak.

 

[derekm]

The equation is CaCl2.xH20+yH20=> CaCl2.(x+y)H20 (i use x and y because there are multiple states of water affinity x = 0, 1, 2, 4, and 6)
what changes is the water of hydration. Calcium oxide , hydrogen chloride are all red herrings
eventually it deliquesces into Ca, Cl ions in solution. Hydration gives off energy so dont swallow a lump of annhydrous as the water in your mouth will make it heat up. Its only as corrosive as common salt. Dont ingest large amounts or high concentrations as that like common salt it will not be good for you.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thank you for reviving this old post. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading from the beginning.

 

[derekm]

back to hydrogen chloride - my chemistry teachers trick was to mix hydrogen and chlorine in a black bag and then invert the bag in sunlight to get it to go bang

 

[oliver90owner]

Deleted

 

[understanding_bees]

I find myself being both amused and disappointed about some of the comments in this discussion thread. To use an old expression, “I don’t know whether to laugh or cry”. There is a big difference between asking a question in order to seek an answer, and giving unhelpful and/or erroneous advice. For example, the comments about Hydrochloric Acid gas (HCl) have no relevance to a discussion about dehydration of honey.

I do not know who was the originator of a thought that a chemical reaction might occur as follows:
CaCl2 + H2O => CaO + 2HCl. A chemical reaction such as this will not occur.

There is a well known example of a chemical reaction between two dangerous substances, to produce a helpful substance which we can add to our food. Caustic Soda and Hydrochloric Acid can be combined to form Sodium Chloride, which is sea salt (NaCl):
NaOH + HCl => NaCl + H2O.

Can we express the equation a little differently, “NaCl + H2O => NaOH + HCl” ?

Can we just add common salt to fresh water to produce a mixture of Caustic Soda and Hydrochloric Acid? No, we cannot! Just because we can write such an expression does not mean that is correct!

Some chemical reactions are exothermic (they produce heat), and some are endothermic (they require heat to be applied before they can occur). There are valid cautions about the use of Calcium Chloride, but its usefulness as a dehydrating agent is well established.

 

[Erichalfbee]

“I don’t know whether to laugh or cry”.

I’d laugh if I were you. I certainly did
You take life far too seriously

 

[understanding_bees]

I’d laugh if I were you. I certainly did
You take life far too seriously

Do I take life too seriously? I doubt it. It is fun to laugh at amusing, and delightful things.
If you laughed because of the incongruity of useless or erroneous comments, and did not take action to warn unsuspecting people of the dangers they might face, then I would question whether you take life seriously enough.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well thanks for the warning
By the way, your definition of an endothermic reaction is wrong

 

[understanding_bees]

By the way, your definition of an endothermic reaction is wrong

Dani, I would like to remain polite. If you want to transform this into the "Chemistry Lab Forum", please let me know. In essence, "Exothermic" and "Endothermic" reactions are opposite in their nature. Exothermic reactions produce heat. Endothermic reactions absorb heat - in other words they need heat to be applied for them to proceed. Please advise everyone what your definition might be for an endothermic reaction. You said that my definition is wrong - please explain.

 

[Erichalfbee]

An endothermic reaction takes in heat from the surroundings
You said

some are endothermic (they require heat to be applied before they can occur).

That’s not the same.

 

[pargyle]

An endothermic reaction takes in heat from the surroundings
You said

That’s not the same.

Keep it simple ...

 

[understanding_bees]

An endothermic reaction takes in heat from the surroundings

To save having a competition for who has the last word in this “debate”, it would be helpful for clarification of the terminology which is being used. I used the words “exothermic” and “endothermic” in the context of chemical reactions. I was quite specific in mentioning “chemical reactions”.

If you ask Dr Google for examples, you will find that the melting of an ice-block is described as an endothermic reaction. This is a physical event – the ice will melt if the ambient temperature is greater than the melting point of the ice. Yes, it is an endothermic reaction, caused by the ice absorbing heat from its surrounds, but it is a physical reaction, and not a chemical reaction. No chemical bonds are formed or broken in such a physical reaction. It is true that this can occur at ambient temperatures without generated heat being used, and you can rightly claim that the ice has absorbed heat from its surroundings.

BUT I was specifically talking about chemical reactions which involve chemical bonds being formed or reformed. The following information is from the website:
Simple Endothermic Reaction Examples

Chemical reactions are all about the energy. In an endothermic reaction, heat is used for the reaction to occur. The heat energy breaks the bonds in the substance causing the reaction. As the heat is absorbed, the product will be colder. This is actually one of the key characteristics of an endothermic reaction.

Dani, would you please advise an example of an endothermic chemical reaction which occurs at ambient temperatures in a laboratory?

 

[pargyle]

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

View attachment 29642

Wasn't Dun Scotus's original discussion on how many angels could dance on the point of a needle?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Dani, would you please advise an example of an endothermic chemical reaction which occurs at ambient temperatures in a laboratory?

Electrolysis
Decomposition of Silver Bromide in sunlight.
Now if you’d said an exothermic chemical reaction Was one that needed energy applied to it I might not have disagreed with you