Sad Loss!

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springers

New Bee
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
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Location
cheshire
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
6
I feel sick! Listened to our "main" hive which we have had for 3 years today and nothing......all dead. Classic starvation symptoms but there was still 25lbs of honey in a super above their heads and 2 kg of fondant above that just in case. There seemed to be 2 centres to the cluster quite a distance apart, but most of the bees were on the floor. Everything has started to go a bit mouldy, what is the best way to clean everything up? This hive has always been very prolific and has provided us with 2 nucs over the last 2 seasons. It went into winter with lots of bees and Honey but they didn't use it.
 
that happen to me with a hive that was my best for 2 years it went into the winter with lots of bees and stores.

the only thing that i could think of was that it went very wam then got really cold quickle and for a long time. the cluster must have got split and couldn't get back together and died becouse of the cold.

this was my take on it but never new for sure.
 
Good idea to test to see if they had nosema,always sad to hear about losses.
 
Did you do an OA treatment and were they OK then? At a guess sounds like queen failure and not enough bees raised in late autumn to go through the winter. Just a guess.
 
Sad Loss

Thank you for your words.
I will test for nosema,
We have had extremes of temperature day/night recently and they were active in the day, many dropped in to a cold zone just infront of the hive on some days when the temp dropped. Picked alot up but not all.
This was our biggest colony and were on 10+ frames before winter. There was also evidence of hatching brood inthe dead cluster, so the queen was active around Christmas.
We have used icing sugar all year and O A at christmas. they were fine then.

Assuming I don't find Nosema, What can I salvage?
 
This might seem a bit harsh but what can you salvage? The icing sugar - use it for cakes in future.

I don't suppose you put a varroa tray in when you did the OA by any chance? It would have been interesting to know how many mites fell out. I have a dreadful feeling it might have been in the hundreds at the very least.

Varroa still remains the number one cause of colony loss in the UK.
 
Its always harder to stomach loosing hives which have done well for a number of seasons , sorry to hear of your loss.
It may be a bit controvertial, but my favourite method of dealing with a dead out , assuming I'm totally satisfied desease isnt an issue, is to let the bees clean it out. When I started with bees I was told that the bees are far more hygenic than we are at a microscopic level so my method is to give them a helping hand by removing any large muck - dead bees or manky pollen which has gone too hard for bees to deal with, close up the hive to prevent robbing and leave it untill one of your other hives is ready for more space, and then simply plonk it on top and let the bees re-inhabit it. You then have the option of splitting, running on double brood, using the brood as a super etc.
Things to consider if doing this are, as previously mentioned, desease - are you passing any on ? and of course there's no point salvaging old or not so good frames so this is an ideal opportunity to get shot of those.
 
Give the hive a good scorching,and providing they did not have nosema and the frames/combs are in good condition,then store them and re-use,athough any with brood in would be better to be destroyed,if they did have nosema then you could fumigate with acetic acid...but if they were mine i would either burn them,or remove the combs,sterilise the frames and fit new wax foundation.

Athough your colony loss may not be to do with nosema,could be other reasons,would of been interesting to know the level of varroa infestation,but from my own observations of treating with oxalic,which would amount to treating over 800 colonys over a period of time,any colonys that had a high nosema spore count, died out completely around two weeks after oxalic acid application,those with a low count survived,but with severely reduced bee numbers(high mortality) after the oxalic treatment,much more so than would normally happen if they had not been treated with oxalic...in fact most of them would of otherwise survived until the spring,and the warmer weather, when a nosema treatment,and the addition of some healthy emerging brood would of cured the problem.
 
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Hivemaker - this is the first I've heard of colony death following oxalic acid treatment of nosema infected bees. Are these just your own observations or has anyone else found this link?
 
Rooftops
what i have written about is entirely from my own observations,however looking into the reasons why, i did read some place it was something to do with the over acidifying effect,causing an enviroment which caused the nosema to rapidly multiply. Nosemic bee's do not feed properly,lose the ability,often they won't even take syrup when fed...so nosema treatments have to be applied direct to the bee's,sprayed, so they get the medication while cleaning each other....they would also do the same with the oxalic i believe,(maybe also helps to burns there mouth parts and guts away),and older bee's especially don't tolerate oxalic well,which many of them could well be in a nosemic colony. There is a small section also on the fera website, which states that bee's already weakened in other ways,ie old bee's, ,varroa,viruses....nosema, do not tolerate oxalic well,and this is where most colony losses occur.
 
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Forgot to add,i have in the past couple of years also tested for nosema in other deadout colonys,from other beekeepers,in different parts of england and NI,after oxalic,and in most cases they have also been nosemic,one sample even had the queen in....she was nosemic also...nosemic queens either don't lay well,or lose the ability to lay altogether.
 
If nosema is endemic then surely the oxalic is usefully weeding out the susceptible colonies
 
If nosema is endemic then surely the oxalic is usefully weeding out the susceptible colonies

Nosema is treatable. No reason to lose the colony if diagnosed early enough. Selection for resistance can follow at leisure - without dead-outs.

RAB
 
Of course it is MBC,could be a great advantage,suppose you could say the same about efb,and even varroa,plus many other disease problems, both in plants,tree's,all livestock....even the human race,let the sick just die out.
 
one sample even had the queen in....she was nosemic also...nosemic queens either don't lay well,or lose the ability to lay altogether.

When I put Oxalic on the hives I collected some dead bees off the floor to test for nosema when our BKA have a microscope day in February.
I put them into 3 plastic bags in the freezer. After my husband had complained once too often about bags of bees on top of his ice cream I moved them but had a quick look in the bags. One of them had a BIG long bee in them. Blimey did my stomach turn over. On close inspection it was a drone.........phew!
 
Natural farming is not simply a way of growing crops, it is the cultivation of perfect human beings* - presumably by letting the sick die out ?

* Masanobu Fukuoka ( kindly linked by Brosville in another thread 0
 
I've looked at samples from dead colonies in Scotland in the last few years and found one with Nosema in about 20 apiaries looked at.

My first thought would be Varroa (and the viruses it spreads). Icing sugar isn't really good enough to keep it under control unless your bees are fairly Varroa-resistant anyway. Also the worst colonies for Varroa are usually the strong ones.

Have a look at cells where brood emerged but didn't get cleaned up (rough edge to the rim), or pull out some of that hatching brood you mentioned. Look on the pupae around the tail end and look right into the vacated cells for the spotty white faeces of Varroa. Dying colonies don't usually clean out those last hatching cells. If you find more that just a small proportion with these classic signs of Varroa then that's your problem.

Some people in some lucky parts of the UK can get away with no or ineffective treatments. Most of us have to do use something stronger, and oxalic acid at Christmas might not be enough to see the bees through 12 months, especially in a strong hive.

I save the better combs from dead hives by fumigating with acetic acid in a dustbin bag. Ones with mouldy bees or poor comb get burned.
 
Thank you I will do that when I get home today. Its our first loss and it makes you feel very guilty. especially if it is varroa.
 
I save the better combs from dead hives by fumigating with acetic acid in a dustbin bag. Ones with mouldy bees or poor comb get burned.


Springers - if you use acetic acid on your frames and have them wrapped in a bin liner in a brood box with metal runners, don't forget to apply vaseline to the runners as the acid is corrosive to metal.
 

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