Running Mike Palmer's system on Nationals

[Little John]

For anyone planning on over-wintering nucs, Mike Palmer gave a very good talk on this subject during the 2013 National Honey Show, a video of which has been uploaded to YouTube:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A

As Mike points out in his talk, the over-wintering of nucs has a very long history, but for various reasons has been largely replaced by imports from afar: in the case of the northern US, from more southerly states, and in Britain, from regions bordering the Mediterranean.

It is my intention to over-winter native AMM stock, both queens and nucs, and so I'm currently in the process of looking at proven systems for doing this. Mike's system is being run on Langstroth boxes, and so this post is (mainly) concerned with how best to run such a system using as much standard National kit as possible.

For the benefit of anyone who hasn't viewed Mike's talk yet, the system is based around a split-brood box, with one or two pairs of half-width supers placed over that box.
The underlying principle behind the use of a split-brood box is that a relatively thin divider will allow thermal transfer between the two halves, thus the nuc colonies will cluster on either side of the divider, sharing their warmth.

However, when dividing a National brood box a problem immediately arises, in that a box which holds 11.5 35mm frames (12 only with a tight squeeze) cannot be divided equally AND incorporate a divider as well.

So - what possible solutions are there for this problem ?

The first - and perhaps most obvious - is the use of a thin divider, with dummy board spacers fitted at both ends of the box. A simple solution, but one which requires 3 components to be made.


The second solution is one already employed here: the use of a wide divider.

Although only one component needs to be made, there is very little thermal contact between the box halves. This could possibly be remedied by having aluminium sheets attached to the sides of these wide dividers, with thermal bridging bars joining them.


The third solution would be to run the brood box asymmetrically - that is, with 6 frames in one half and 5 in the other. That would obviate the need for dummy spacers, but would require the making of an adapter plate. Such a plate could easily be inserted between a brood box with bottom-beespace and nucs above with top-beespace. As can be seen in the following diagram, the central bar of such an adapter plate would need to be 36mm wide in order to completely cover both a 3/4" divider below, and present a similar width to the pair of nuc boxes above. In practice, I would expect that this could be whittled-down to something around 26mm, which would hopefully still present enough surface area for adequate sealing. There would undoubtedly still be some propolising above the inner top bar of the 6-frame nuc, but whether this becomes a serious problem or not, only testing would reveal.

A fourth solution would be to dispense with the brood box entirely, and make an extra pair of half-width nuc boxes instead. This pair could then be strapped together to form the split brood box. If the inner walls were kept to a minimum thickness (as with all the nuc boxes in this system) - say, 10mm - and the outer wall made extra thick - say 30mm - then this could be a possible solution, albeit one which has strayed from the basic concept of 'using what you have'.

Having strayed this far - a fifth solution would be to abandon the National box size entirely, and make sets of completely new boxes, dimensioned for either a 4+4 or 5+5 system.

If possible I'd like to settle on one of the above solutions before the New Year, in order to make the necessary kit before the season commences - so would very much appreciate hearing any opinions which others may have on this particular topic.

LJ

 

[Little John]

No takers ? Ok, no worries - it's been a difficult nut to crack, but got there eventually.

Just in case anyone is wondering what the basic issue here is - it's best shown on the following website:
http://www.betterbee.com/Products/Nuc-Boxes-and-Components/Double-Nuc-with-Supers

I've pinched their graphics to illustrate the problem:

So - if you space the frames in the supers accurately, then the brood box is adrift, and vice versa. Just look at the inter-frame spacings here:

A second issue I've had to deal with is that of the broken pallets I'm using which have planks in various thicknesses - but I don't own a thicknesser.

I've now resolved both of these issues - an acceptable method of maintaining accurate frame spacing AND a way of accomodating various wood thicknesses and yet still produce a 360mm square footprint. Construction can now start.

I'll keep you posted ...

LJ

 

[oliver90owner]

I'm using which have planks in various thicknesses - but I don't own a thicknesser.

No thicknesser? Got a router? If so, no real problem?

 

[Eyeman]

Hi Little john
A very technical approach.
Over wintering 5 & 6 frame nucs isn't that difficult in my part of the UK. I'm overwintering 9 nucs this year in cedar hives with top insulation. I always keep a tub of fondant on the nationals but the 14x12's can usually survive on their stores.
These nucs are used for assessing the performance and overwintering of new queens and in spring and summer boosting honey producing colonies with sealed brood. The queens from the nucs are mainly used for re-queening existing stock either electively or as swarm control.
I am often short of 6F nucs during the spring / summer as they are employed in neighborly swarm collection and colony splits. So like you I am planning on running a split brood box.
My plan is to have 1 nuc per honey producing colony. I currently run 2 out-apiaries one with 10 nationals the other with 10 14x12's. So I'm in the process of splitting 5 nationals and 5 14x12's.
I'm going down the line of cutting a rebate in the middle down both internal sides so that I can fit a 4mm or 6mm sheet of ply to split the box. I'm not worried as you are about exact dimensions as any space can easily be closed using a home made kingspan dummy cut to size.
I'm going to have separate crown boards for each half of the split hive but I don't plan on using supers at this stage.
Will post a pic when I've made my first one.
Alec

 

[Little John]

Hi Little john
A very technical approach.
Over wintering 5 & 6 frame nucs isn't that difficult

Hi Alec

Technical ? - yes - that's my background. But sure, one which can get in the way sometimes ...

This is a bit more than just being about over-wintering nucs though - it's a whole system in itself, and one which promises to be quite flexible. So - I wanted to get the basics for it as optimal as possible before starting to create sawdust.

Although my introduction to this system was via Mike Palmer (many thanks, Mike), it has earlier origins with Kirk Webster, and also Herman Van der Kerkhof.

Kerkhof filed a patent back in '77 (US4135265) which incorporated the dual nuc over a split brood. This patent eventually expired, but I see someone else is currently trying to patent pretty-much the same idea with US20140127969

Mike Palmer uses this system, not only to over-winter nucs, but also to form prolific 'brood factories'. This can be more easily understood if, rather than viewing the system as being 'pairs of nucs over nucs', it's viewed instead as being a 2-queen system, divided down the middle - but still within (in this case) a single National footprint. When seen from that point of view, it's no wonder that this set-up is so prolific.

But as well as being both an over-wintering system AND a system for producing prolific quantities of brood (and for drawing comb, etc), it can also be used with the nucs placed at right angles to provide shared supers over a QX. For some reason this tends to create 'competition' (or so it is being suggested) between the two colonies of workers, resulting in increased production. Maybe.

One further attraction for myself is that this split-super set-up lends itself very well to queen-rearing by the Rose method (not to be confused with the Rose hive - same name, but different person).

All-in-all a potentially very useful variation on the National theme - hence my interest in optimising the construction of the boxes before actually making any.

LJ

 

[mbc]

Great to see some innovative woodwork, but from a purely practical beekeeping perspective the two main advantages of this system are shared heat and entrances kept above the snow, the first is unnecessary when using poly nucs and the second isn't an issue in blighty.
Joining colonies together where one cannot be inspected without disturbing another, or if one develops at a different rate it causes an imbalance, is always less flexible and more cumbersome in my experience.

 

[derekm]

mike palmers technique has physics behind it.

essentially the nest temperature Tn is given by

Tn = Ta +r*p*V/(A*U)

Ta ambient temp
r metabolic rate W/kg
p bee density m3/kg
V hive volume
A hive area
U average hive conductivitiy W/m2

Mike's technique is to maximise bee density p and the volume per unit area ratio.

The V/A ration for a nuc is poorer than a full hive but this is usually more than offset for small colonies by the the improvement in bee density.
mikes approach gets the V/A for a full hive but with the bee density of a nuc.

However, mikes approach ignores U .
It is possible to get a factor 10 improvement in U where as you might only get factors of 2 in the rest.
If you are wedded to a top ventilation in winter regime, U is heavily dependent on the aperture size rather than insulation factors. Insulation combined with top ventilation will increase air flow and drive down relative humidity and increase water loss which is not good for the bees (dont confuse damp with RH)

 

[fiftyjon]

Hi LJ,

I have too been thinking along Mike Palmers lines and using my existing National kit.
I have successfully overwintered, over the last few years, colonies in wooden five frame nuc boxes that are strapped together. It enables me to use standard roofs, shallow boxes, ekes etc.
The nuc boxes have separate floors which can be removed, therefore giving me half width deep boxes.
This coming year I have a good number of deep boxes that I will fit dividers in and then use my half width deep boxes on top. I will make dividers that are 36mm wide (probably ply sandwiched kingspan) so that the half width boxes (with side walls of 18mm) will sit on top and the frames will then be in line.
I have pondered the comments regarding shared heat through the dividing wall but in my (limited) experience I haven't seen any difficulties with my overwintered five frame nuc colonies (in wooden nucs) having any issues expanding and being large productive colonies.

If one overwinters strong five frame nuc colonies instead of small wheezy ones that need constant molly-cuddling this too will help.

 

[Eyeman]

I will make dividers that are 36mm wide (probably ply sandwiched kingspan) so that the half width boxes (with side walls of 18mm) will sit on top and the frames will then be in line.

Those of us that use castellated spacers in our supers (shallows) to get them down to 9 or 10 frames end up with super frames that are our of line with the brood box. So do you want both boxes to have aligned frames because both will be used for brood rearing?
Alec

 

[Eyeman]

Joining colonies together where one cannot be inspected without disturbing another, or if one develops at a different rate it causes an imbalance, is always less flexible and more cumbersome in my experience.

Mbc is right. I remember when nationals were divided into 4 for queen mating / rearing. It did make examination fiddly.
Despite any difficulties a national split into 2 with separate crown boards is quick and simple to make. Personally I would gain experience in managing the brood box for a season or two before adding supers.
Alec

 

[rolande]

I would gain experience in managing the brood box for a season or two before adding supers.

I've a sneaking suspicion that LJ's plan to double up the boxes will prove far easier to manage (on a long term basis) than trying to keep a colony in a five frame nuc for multiple seasons.

 

[fiftyjon]

Those of us that use castellated spacers in our supers (shallows) to get them down to 9 or 10 frames end up with super frames that are our of line with the brood box. So do you want both boxes to have aligned frames because both will be used for brood rearing?
Alec

The nuc boxes use deep frames so they are for brood rearing.

The shallow boxes are used as ekes on top of crownboards so no frames are fitted.

 

[oliver90owner]

dividers that are 36mm wide (probably ply sandwiched kingspan) so that the half width boxes (with side walls of 18mm) will sit on top and the frames will then be in line.

Doing this will defeat the best use of insulation. Common sense tells me it would be far better to have a thinner divider and utilise any insulation on exterior faces. Any heat lost from one compartment would end up in the other, or rather there will be no, or little, heat transfer. The only advantage of an insulated divider is to prevent possible isolation starvation, by the bees clustering against each side of it?

 

[Little John]

Thoxxes are offering a 'twin-stock' which has 12-frames, a plastic divider and sits on a 360mm footprint.

So - that's 12 x 35mm, plus (say) 2mm for the plastic - that's 422mm - leaving just 38mm for both side walls ... but with zero clearance. It's possible to do that of course (they have done so) but sounds to me like it could be a shoe-horn job after a season or two.

FWIW - In the solution chosen, I've decide to use a brood box divider which presents a physical thickness of 60mm - thus preserving the correct frame spacing with a little clearance - but which in terms of thermal transfer has a width of 6mm. Like an inverted Tardis

Bit of a Xmas riddle there - but I'm sure there are enough brains on this forum to figure out how this can be done.

LJ

 

[thebeeman]

This is one i finished this morning. Has 2" Kingspan insulation roof

 

[Little John]

Nice job - and those securing clips are a good idea. Hadn't thought of using anything like that. Nice one.
LJ

 

[thebeeman]

The clips keep them nice and tight and helps to lessen thermal loss als adds to stability there not the cheapest using 4 per hive.
I have 75 of these now and they work well. If your not taking brood from them you can add a QE and pop a shallow on top for honey. But at the end you need to make sure there equalized as sometimes the bees can choose there Favourite queen and mass on one side

 

[REDWOOD]

Good Job
If you run 14x12, five frame nucs are big enough, a larger dividing board will allow for split crown board and floor

 

[fiftyjon]

dividers that are 36mm wide (probably ply sandwiched kingspan) so that the half width boxes (with side walls of 18mm) will sit on top and the frames will then be in line.

Doing this will defeat the best use of insulation. Common sense tells me it would be far better to have a thinner divider and utilise any insulation on exterior faces. Any heat lost from one compartment would end up in the other, or rather there will be no, or little, heat transfer. The only advantage of an insulated divider is to prevent possible isolation starvation, by the bees clustering against each side of it?

The kingspan use was just to give the width not for any insulation advantage, I could just use thicker wood.

 

[Tim1606]

I don't understand what you are all worrying about. Langs or nationals or whatever, Mike says its whats in the box not the box, so just get your tools out and make a few supers.

We followed Mikes ideas this year with good results. The dividers are all thin ply and we placed the brood from other colonies either side of the divider with the stores on the edges. It did not make one jot whether the frames were inline or not, the bees just moved up and used them. The divider is the centre of the brood nest and we have noticed that the whole box acted like a normal national brood box with them keeping stores on the outer frames on both sides.

We have over 65 nucs overwintering ready for the spring, all made using this method, and we did not have to touch our production colonies.