Restoring some semblance of normality

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I've inherited a number of hives/colonies to look after. One of them appears to have fallen over some time ago and been reassembled partly upside down. The colony is lively and seems to be thriving. I've just had a peek inside and would be grateful for your suggestions on the next steps.

The stack is like this: starting from the bottom, there is a very off-level stand (a workmate, so perilously high), an open mesh floor, a board (presumably with an open hole and presumably not a queen excluder), a standard national brood box with frames upside down, another board (possibly queen excluder), a second brood box which seems to be chockablock with honey filled wavy comb fixed to the underside of the board (I just had a peek), a crown board and a roof.

I have a number of ideas. I don't have a bee-vac. I do have a bottle Bee-Quick and plenty spare kit.

If this has already been covered in previous posts, please just post links.
Many thanks. Archie

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If the top deep is entirely filled with honey, I would remove that then move the rest, as is on to a lower more stable stand, chuck a new deep filled with foundation on top of the lot and leave the bees move up to the new box in their own time. When you are able to inspect the new box and you find the queen, chuck a QE under it and wait for the brood in the bottom box to emerge before removing.
Even if it takes until the spring....

 

[pargyle]

Blimey ... you've got your work cut out there ...

Personally, I think I would:

1. Make a new sensible stand.
2. Put a new floor on it if you have one (I have a preference for open mesh floors but up to you).
3. Remove the top box in it's entirety with the roof and crown board and if you can the board underneath it and set it down somewhere.
4. Put the bottom brood box the right way up on the new floor and stand.
5. If you have a super and drawn frames I would put a super on top
6. Then a clearer board and the honey filled brood box on top with the crown board and roof.

Overnight that should clear the brood box filled with honey and you can remove it the following day and decide what you can do with it.

Let them get on with it for a week or two - they will probably sort out the upside down comb in the frames and you can go in an inspect/adjust/replace when they have re-settled. If you try to do too much all in one go you are just going to end up with bees everywhere that don't know what's going on. I would not use the bee quick if you have time and the ability to use a clearer board overnight .. just less disturbance for a colony that has already been potentially messed about.


Edit ... Looks like JBM and I are pretty much on the same page ... I'd agree if you have a drawn brood box use that in place of the super I suggested.
Good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Then a clearer board and the honey filled brood box on top with the crown board and roof. Overnight that should clear the brood box filled with honey

This will work later in summer when the colony contracts, but not if there's any sort of flow on.

Alternative is to take the box of wild comb (once the bees have exited) and pretend it's 1746: mash and strain for at least 48 hours to get all the honey, wash the remains and make mead, and render the wax to make a tiny candle for a long winter evening.

Least colony upset is to put a new box on top as JBM suggested.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I must admit I would put a new box on top and leave them to it. No disturbance to the colony. No risk to the queen being killed while the architecture is destroyed.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a good way to get as much honey out of the comb is to put it all in a sheet of clean cloth close it up then twist as you would do to wring out a wet towel (works even better with two doing it - it's a system used a lot out in Africa)

 

[pargyle]

This will work later in summer when the colony contracts, but not if there's any sort of flow on.

Alternative is to take the box of wild comb (once the bees have exited) and pretend it's 1746: mash and strain for at least 48 hours to get all the honey, wash the remains and make mead, and render the wax to make a tiny candle for a long winter evening.

Least colony upset is to put a new box on top as JBM suggested.

Well ... you still have to get the bees out of a brood box that sounds like it has free comb filled with honey .... what you do with the box once it's out is moot. Plus, from the OP it sounds as though the free comb is attached to the QE ? underneath it.

It's not going to be something that can be sorted overnight ... but getting the stack into some sort of order with the bees in boxes you can deal with (not in frames that are upside down or filled with free comb) would be my priority whilst the weather is warm this week and then let them get on with it. It's not a situation that is going to get any better ...

 

[drex]

Cheese wire is going to be invaluable

 

[pargyle]

Cheese wire is going to be invaluable

Yes ... it's a good way of separating boxes gued together with free comb ... lot less mess than trying to just prise them apart ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you read what the OP actually says it seems like the top deep is the one full of free comb/honey, so that can easily be cleared down into the bottom BB, it doesn't really matter that the brood frames are upside down, they've coped with is thus far so flipping them back the right way would only cause added disruption, them being upside down would also (possibly) make them more conducive to moving up to a new BB.

 

[ericbeaumont]

easily be cleared down into the bottom BB

Yes, a clearer board beneath the box of honey.

 

[pargyle]

If you read what the OP actually says it seems like the top deep is the one full of free comb/honey, so that can easily be cleared down into the bottom BB, it doesn't really matter that the brood frames are upside down, they've coped with is thus far so flipping them back the right way would only cause added disruption, them being upside down would also (possibly) make them more conducive to moving up to a new BB.

Yes I did...

" The stack is like this: starting from the bottom, there is a very off-level stand (a workmate, so perilously high), an open mesh floor, a board (presumably with an open hole and presumably not a queen excluder), a standard national brood box with frames upside down, another board (possibly queen excluder), a second brood box which seems to be chockablock with honey filled wavy comb fixed to the underside of the board (I just had a peek), a crown board and a roof. ".

The only issue I would have with not inverting the bottom box is that it appears to be sat on a board of some kind above the floor ... so moving it to a new floor (as we both agree) means you would have to remove the board from the bottom of the box and odds on it is going to be well stuck .. easier to turn it up the right way, put in on the new stand and then cheese wire off the 'board' - then you have the frames up the right way for the future, they will move up to the new box on top with a bit of luck and in due course you can have a look in the bottom box as you can then move the frames about ...

 

[pargyle]

Yes, a clearer board beneath the box of honey.

I think that's what I said originally ?

 

[user 20297]

a good way to get as much honey out of the comb is to put it all in a sheet of clean cloth close it up then twist as you would do to wring out a wet towel (works even better with two doing it - it's a system used a lot out in Africa)

Tim Rowe had some recent experience of this:

 

[pargyle]

Putting on a full super of empty frames (even though they have been previously used) is giving them an opportunity to get creative. I'm foundationless but I would not contemplate giving them an entire super of undrawn frames ....

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Thank you for all these comments. Everyone seems to have been able to picture what I was describing.

'work cut out' ... was that deliberate, pargyle?

I'm forming a plan. I'll start with the upper box full of honey. Because it has boards above and below, it should separate from the lower box. If it does, I can insert a clearer board. Then I can extract African style. (I was not completely clear in my description of the stack. The comb is attached to the upper board, though I imagine it's also attached to the board below which may or may not be a QE. I hope it is!) Thanks for the suggestion of cheese wire. I have one but didn't think of it.

I'll replace the wobbly stand but I think I'll leave the existing floor and the board above it for the time being. The bees seem to come and go freely.

Regarding the lower deep box, even though the bees have once survived the inverting of the brood comb - resulting in the cells all pointing downwards - I'm not inclined to put them through that again. So I'll put a box of foundation on top and wait.

Should I feed them? I want to encourage them to draw comb and they no longer have their honey store?

Once again, thanks to all for the suggestions. Great video too. I'll post an update when I'm done.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Putting on a full super of empty frames (even though they have been previously used) is giving them an opportunity to get creative. I'm foundationless but I would not contemplate giving them an entire super of undrawn frames ....

This came after posting. But I think you're referring to the video. I guess you would normally alternate foundation and empty frames in a super.

 

[pargyle]

This came after posting. But I think you're referring to the video. I guess you would normally alternate foundation and empty frames in a super.

Well yes and no - I don't use foundation but I would always alternate drawn frames with foundationless ones ... otherwise they do get very creative with where and in what direction they build the comb. It sometimes means a bit of juggling frames in the supers but I have enough drawn frames to manage it these days. It was sometimes a bit of a struggle in the early days but I used to get super frames drawn in the brood box and then move them up into the supers and dummy down the super space.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Putting on a full super of empty frames (even though they have been previously used) is giving them an opportunity to get creative.

We're not talking about a super - it's a brood box with foundation so I assumed (maybe I shouldn't have) that the frames would be Hoffmans or the OP would use narrow spacers to give eleven frames in the box.
Never yet seen bees get 'creative' with a box full of correctly spaced brood frames.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

We're not talking about a super - it's a brood box with foundation so I assumed (maybe I shouldn't have) that the frames would be Hoffmans or the OP would use narrow spacers to give eleven frames in the box.
Never yet seen bees get 'creative' with a box full of correctly spaced brood frames.

You've had the same misunderstanding as I had at first; pargyle is referring to your video, not my inverted chaos.