Repeat Oxalic vaporising - but with honey on the hive?

[itma]

I think we need to check those LDA figures again since we excrete about 50grammes a day of the stuff from dietary intake.

Milligrams (thousandths of a gram) not grams!

 

[stucat]

Milligrams (thousandths of a gram) not grams!

I had to read it again before I believed you.
Oops !

 

[Finman]

So you do agree that oxalic acid is toxic?
Well done.

Stupid idea. But

To eate 500 kg honey is more dangerous than oxalic acid in the honey,

 

[Thymallus]

That is about the yield from 2 of your hives....Probably more dangerous lifting the full supers off the hive.

 

[beebot]

Dose is important.

e.g. Even water is toxic if taken in too much volume (particularly after severe exercise).

It is fair to say oxalic acid naturally present in honey is not toxic. So in that sense Finman is correct.

However it is a toxic chemical and people often refer to rhubarb leaves as toxic due to oxalic acid content.

To say it is harmless is incorrect as it can clearly kill you if taken in relatively small amount.

It is harmless to eat carrots or honey as levels of oxalic acid are low. But you can also say they are harmless because the water content will not intoxicate you either.

 

[itma]

Dose is important.
...
It is harmless to eat carrots or honey as levels of oxalic acid are low. But you can also say they are harmless because the water content will not intoxicate you either.

Natural levels of Oxalic in honey are indeed harmless.

However, I'm not sure that would still be the case after vaporising 12g or more (3g times 4, maybe more, treatments at about 5 day intervals) into a hive with crop supers in place.

Eating the honey wouldn't kill you - nobody has claimed that - but the question remains as to whether that concentration could produce harmful effects (similar to arthritis or gout) after eating the honey.

Regardless of the legalities, I'd rather keep such materials out of my honey crop, even though I'd use them when there was no crop to contaminate.

 

[Finman]

No, you take a look at the UK law
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/1348/pdfs/uksi_20151348_en.pdf
Specifically Schedule 1 which gives "Compositional Criteria" (you will have to scroll down).

That is true. The is a limit to total free acids. IT is not specified to oxalic.

 

[beebot]

Natural levels of Oxalic in honey are indeed harmless.

However, I'm not sure that would still be the case after vaporising 12g or more (3g times 4, maybe more, treatments at about 5 day intervals) into a hive with crop supers in place.

Eating the honey wouldn't kill you - nobody has claimed that - but the question remains as to whether that concentration could produce harmful effects (similar to arthritis or gout) after eating the honey.

Regardless of the legalities, I'd rather keep such materials out of my honey crop, even though I'd use them when there was no crop to contaminate.

Nobody seems to know the answer to that which I why I have made no comment on it. Really needs to be tested which it appears nobody has done.

What you do with your own honey is your choice but your problems would be metabolic rather that getting gout or arthritis if it did contain too much oxalic acid.

 

[Finman]

,
But to the main issue. There are much mites in the hive, I suppose.

Another way is to make AS. Queen and bees fly into broodless hive. Brood and very young bees stay in brood hive. After 3 days when bees have moved to swarm hive it is easy to knock down free mites. One treatment.
That hive is able to forage with full strength. Move supers to swarm hive. Before that shake bees off that they do not bring mites.

Brood emerge gradually. And treat them later.

So honey will not have much oxalic or formic acid

 

[Finman]

Really needs to be tested which it appears nobody has done.

What you do with your own honey is your choice but your problems would be metabolic rather that getting gout or arthritis if it did contain too much oxalic acid.

Those things has been tested in EU Varroa Group about 12 years ago.
Nothing new on that frontier since then.

You need not to use that system which could spoil you honey. Taste or feeling or what ever.

 

[beebot]

Those things has been tested in EU Varroa Group about 12 years ago.


Shame you did not say that earlier rather some of the other things.

Can you point us in the direction of the results of these test please.

 

[wessexmario]

Repeat Oxalic vaporising - but while there is honey on the hive.

Oxalic doesn't evaporate away like the Formic in MAQS.
So this strikes me as a REALLY BAD idea, with 3 crop supers in place.
But how can I convince an Oxalic vaporising enthusiast of that?

Or is it OK really and you've done it and got away with it?

Let's do some maths...

say a dose of 1gm of oxalic is vapourised.
say 25% is absorbed into the 3 honey supers.

A super holds 25lb of honey so there will be 0.25gm in 75lb of honey,
which is 0.003gm of oxalic in a 1lb jar

That concentration is 0.003/454*100 = 0.0006608% by weight

To allow for variations in concentration (although the honey extraction & filtering process will tend to physically mix the oxalic more evenly) say the concentration in any one jar could be 20x the average.

There are approx 64 teaspoons of honey in a 1lb jar.
Given that an average daily consumption is no more than a few spoons of honey per day per person, say daily consumption is 8 teaspoons, or 0.125lb.

That concentration of oxalic in honey is 0.0006608% by weight
or 8 teaspoons would give a daily consumption of 0.003g of oxalic.

Would that be dangerous?
or not worth worryng about?

The natural concentration of oxalic acid (oxalates) based on fresh weight in spinach is 0.3-1.2%, in rhubarb 0.2-1.3%, in tea 0.3-2.0%, and in cocoa 0.5-0.9%

lots of non-experimental assumptions but even if my numbers are a factor of 1,000 out, it wouldn't be any more concentrated than in spinach or rhubarb.

 

[Finman]

Let's do some maths...

say a dose of 1gm of oxalic is vapourised.
say 25% is absorbed into the 3 honey supers.

A super holds 25lb of honey so there will be 0.25gm in 75lb of honey,
which is 0.003gm of oxalic in a 1lb jar

That concentration is 0.003/454*100 = 0.0006608% by weight

To allow for variations in concentration (although the honey extraction & filtering process will tend to physically mix the oxalic more evenly) say the concentration in any one jar could be 20x the average.

There are approx 64 teaspoons of honey in a 1lb jar.
Given that an average daily consumption is no more than a few spoons of honey per day per person, say daily consumption is 8 teaspoons, or 0.125lb.

That concentration of oxalic in honey is 0.0006608% by weight
or 8 teaspoons would give a daily consumption of 0.003g of oxalic.

Would that be dangerous?
or not worth worryng about?

The natural concentration of oxalic acid (oxalates) based on fresh weight in spinach is 0.3-1.2%, in rhubarb 0.2-1.3%, in tea 0.3-2.0%, and in cocoa 0.5-0.9%

lots of non-experimental assumptions but even if my numbers are a factor of 1,000 out, it wouldn't be any more concentrated than in spinach or rhubarb.

Researches have been done in Europe ( behind Channel) Just dig them out.

 

[Finman]

.
But those researches were connected to trickling method to verify that it is safe to human health.


It is very different method to cover the hive interior with oxalic acid fog during yield season and repeated time. Those chemical methods are meant to use when honey crop is out if hive, including formic acid and thymol.


I wonder who is so brave that he would recommend repeated fumigination in the middle of summer?

 

[Finman]

.
But those researches were connected to trickling method to verify that it is safe to human health.


It is very different method to cover the hive interior with oxalic acid fog during yield season and repeated time. Those chemical methods are meant to use when honey crop is out if hive, including formic acid and thymol.


I wonder who is so brave that he would recommend repeated vaporising in the middle of summer?

 

[beebot]

.
But those researches were connected to trickling method to verify that it is safe to human health.


It is very different method to cover the hive interior with oxalic acid fog during yield season and repeated time. Those chemical methods are meant to use when honey crop is out if hive, including formic acid and thymol.


I wonder who is so brave that he would recommend repeated fumigination in the middle of summer?

You are contradicting yourself and don't seem to be able to find the research to back up your earlier post. Not very impressive or convincing. This is what irritates people about your contributions.

 

[thebeeman]

If you want to OV during the season the simple solution would be to just take off your honey supers Vape and them a couple of hours later put them back on. Problem solved. More beekeepers should do this if you think about it everyone treats for Varroa at the end of the year when most of the damage is done. Feel free to rip this reply to bits!

 

[Finman]

You are contradicting yourself and don't seem to be able to find the research to back up your earlier post. Not very impressive or convincing. This is what irritates people about your contributions.

I do not need to convince you. . As you see, I never ask here anything because I know how to nurse hives. I have had varroa 30 years in my hives. But I do not put chemicals into hives during yield period.

Listen now. You have a problem and it is not my problem. Do not bite helper's hand. You are not so important that you may bark on me because you are a member of British Empire.

i have copied those researches 20 times during years into this forum. And I gove already the keywords in this thread: "Agrolink oxalic acid". And Thymallys copied too those main results.

Problem is that if I have given an internet link 2 years ago, mostly it is not there any more.

I toggle with smartphone and this is laborous Job. IT changes words like mad.
I am not anybodys servant.

Learn to respect those who knows better. A free advice to high class citizen.

Agrolink oxalic acid. Google it!

 

[Nige.Coll]

I use common sense.
If I intend eating the honey I don't put chemicals or sugars into the hive while it is there.
If however you MUST treat what's wrong with putting a crown board under the supers for a day after clearing them. It's not rocket science.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

 

[Finman]

.
You cannot push bees from 3 supers into brood box in the middle of summer gor repeated fuming.

It is better to find better treatment method. I told one.
.