Removing empty supers from hive!

[bobba]

My bees are doing rubbish this year.

It probably mostly because of the weather, its been c$£p compared to last year.

I have not had the chance to inspect my bees for 2 weeks because of work/weather and other commitments. I had a good look at them all today.
Hives 2,3 and 4 are doing OK, I guess for the weather, they are stacking a bit of honey. But nothing like last year.

But its my beloved H1 that is of real concern. The supers that had been filling are now completely empty, there are hardly any bees, no queen, no brood eggs etc that I could see. I can only assume I missed a huge swarm. I had noticed a sudden drop off in traffic from this hive about a week ago, so that would explain that.

So just want to run my plan of action past you lot. I think I should give them a frame with some eggs/brood from another hive, then remove the 2 supers as I think they now have too much space. I think I need to let them build back up and get a laying queen before considering putting any supers back on.

Any thoughts, or suggestions welcome.

I also saw a wax moth on the outside of another hive, I went to squash it with the hive tool and it dodged me the first time, they are surprisingly fast for a moth.

Thanks as always.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Losing a swarm wouldn't have the devastating effect that you describe. unless of course the first swarm left a fornight ago and they've cast themselves to a standstill with the queens that have emerged since, but even then the timeline doesn't feel quite right.

 

[Erichalfbee]

How much is hardly any bees?
If they have swarmed then maybe there is a virgin running around in there and going by the weather probably an unmated one, but there is still time. If you don't want to give up on them put them in a poly nuc, give them a frame of food and a test frame. Have a look in three days.
Like JBM says. the timeline doesn't stack up

 

[bobba]

How much is hardly any bees?
If they have swarmed then maybe there is a virgin running around in there and going by the weather probably an untamed one, but there is still time. If you don't want to give up on them put them in a poly nuc, give them a frame of food and a test frame. Have a look in three days.
Like JBM says. the timeline doesn't stack up

The supers were bare, bone dry with a little cluster in each and a few scattered around. The Top brood (A 1/2) still had bees on every frame except the outside ones. Then the bottom brood (a full) only relay had bees on the top 1/3 of the frames.

So what I mean was hardly any bees compared to last time I looked. There are still enough to fill a deep brood. But I was expecting/hoping to see the brood and 1/2, and both supers stuffed with bees, like its neighbor.

I looked through the shallow 1/2 brood as that's where the bees were mainly concentrated and saw no eggs brood etc. I started looking through the deep and there was nothing but stores, I only made it 1/2 way through the deep and the weather turned, so I figured I had seen all I needed and packed up quickly.

So its possible there could still be something on the last unchecked frames but I doubt it. And there could definty be a virgin in there. Mum had a stripy bum and was a master of camouflager, and so is another of her daughters.

Looking at my records I last opened this hive on the 6th, so just over 2 weeks ago. I did not see a queen, but I lifted some frames from the 1/2 brood and they looked ok. I am bad at seeing eggs unless its sunny, as the weather was bad I could not tell if there were eggs or not. But I saw some fat brood.

I mentioned In another post that I had split a load of brood open as I prized apart the brood and 1/2-brood. This is the hive that happened to. It never got its mojo back and reorganized like the other hives after that.

I had been thinking more how to put things right, rather than what caused it, but you lot have got me thinking, and the more I think the more strange it seems.

 

[Boston Bees]

I would start by pushing them all into a single brood box, and remove everything else, if the situation is as you say. That should make finding the queen, if there is one, easier, and will also allow you to check if you are really broodless. If, after that, you really do find no early-stage brood at all, and no queen, you could add a frame of eggs as you say. But I would be surprised if that will be needed - I have a suspicion you will find something, be it a remaining capped queen cell, a virgin queen, etc

 

[bobba]

I would start by pushing them all into a single brood box, and remove everything else, if the situation is as you say. That should make finding the queen, if there is one, easier, and will also allow you to check if you are really broodless. If, after that, you really do find no early-stage brood at all, and no queen, you could add a frame of eggs as you say. But I would be surprised if that will be needed - I have a suspicion you will find something, be it a remaining capped queen cell, a virgin queen, etc

Thanks,

I was thinking of removing both supers, then leaving them on brood + 1/2. I get your thinking of getting them to a single brood, but they have a lot of stores in the 1/2, and they are mostly concentrated there anyway. Although I looked through today the weather was not great and the bees were getting grumpy at times. Combine this with the fact that I am not a very good bee keeper and the possibility of my missing something is highly likely

I was hesitant to take the supers off, but regret leaving them on now. I think the empty space above the main cluster is not helping them.

They are also clustering below the 1/2 wich is right below the QE, could this indicate there is still a Q or vQ. If there was nothing to stay down for would the bees not cluster in the top super where its warmer?

 

[drex]

Rather than all the guessing why not just put in a test frame? Then you will have a much better idea of where you are. You have done the sensible bit of reducing the space, now to move forward

 

[bobba]

Rather than all the guessing why not just put in a test frame? Then you will have a much better idea of where you are. You have done the sensible bit of reducing the space, now to move forward

I have not removed the space yet!

It started chucking it down for the rest of the day yesterday, so I never got the chance to go back out.

I have just got back from work, so am hoping to put a clearer board on in a bit - if it does not start raining again.

I should have just trusted myself and put a clearer board on when I had the hive open yesterday. But as I have never encountered a situation like this I thought I would check on here 1st. (A process that has saved me making a few mistakes in the past).

I was a bit in shock too tbh, It was not what I was expecting.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I had split a load of brood open as I prized apart the brood and 1/2-brood.

Brood between boxes suggests that brood+half is not enough for them, or that your beespace between boxes is inaccurate. Why not forgo the faff and run them on double brood?

 

[bobba]

Brood between boxes suggests that brood+half is not enough for them, or that your beespace between boxes is inaccurate. Why not forgo the faff and run them on double brood?

This hive was obsessed with building between boxes. It did it on all the supers last year. I do have a lot of home made boxes, but the brood problem happened between 2 proper-job ceder boxes. I think I did leave it too long before adding supers this year.

I have 4 hives now. When I started out I did not know double brood was an option. So just started out with single brood, then ran short of space and learned you could do brood +1/2. So I gave that a go.

This year, persuaded in part by a certain welsh man and a few others, I thought I would give some doubles a try.

So the plan was to run 2 * doubles, and 2 * B+1/2. This hive had done so well last year that I did not want to upset a winning formula. So thought I would leave it as it was.

So that's how I ended up in this situation.

In preparation to convert this one to double, I could put the 1/2 on the bottom once the supers are off, then remove it when the bees have moved up.

But tbh, the brood contains 4 frames from the nuc my bees arrived in, and the other brood frames are all a bit wonky/bumpy. Its basically not an option to change the order of them. So in short the frames in the brood are all c%$p, so I would probably do just as well to swap that out why I am at it.

I will assess once all the bees are out of the supers and I can see exactly whats there. So I am going to try get them on some fresh wax ready to go double next year.

 

[Nannysbees]

That's interesting we are on a brood and a half.i prefer just the brood box but the amount of bees we have a think a double would be more suitable

 

[The Poot]

That's interesting we are on a brood and a half.i prefer just the brood box but the amount of bees we have a think a double would be more suitable

I have grown to intensely dislike the limitations of brood and a half, so took measures in April to get my rapidly expanding colonies onto double brood.
Naturally, as Murphy’s law dictates, having done so the weather changed, the queens reduced laying, the colonies have become smaller and it all seems to have been a waste of effort.
But I feel great satisfaction from getting the half broods above the excluders, empty of brood. Just sad they’re empty of nectar too.....

 

[Spadger]

I have grown to intensely dislike the limitations of brood and a half, so took measures in April to get my rapidly expanding colonies onto double brood.
Naturally, as Murphy’s law dictates, having done so the weather changed, the queens reduced laying, the colonies have become smaller and it all seems to have been a waste of effort.
But I feel great satisfaction from getting the half broods above the excluders, empty of brood. Just sad they’re empty of nectar too.....

Exactly the same here. Hold the faith, the warmth is coming. Maybe.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If a colony has swarmed, they will have left a queen or queencell behind. If you are not sure if there's a queen there now, a test-frame will answer the question. I would leave them as they are (or clear and take off the empty supers if you wish) until you know what's going on.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you are not sure if there's a queen there now, a test-frame will answer the question.

Or may not.
The only time you will get a positive result is id they build QCs on it - you will then know they're Q-
If they don't build QCs they may have a queen, but then again, they may not

 

[bobba]

Thanks for all the tips everyone.

Well we finally got some good weather - until 4:30pm. And now its constant rain again! I have everything ready to go, so if there is the slightest break in the rain I will be out there. My wife suggested putting a gazebo above the hives so I can inspect in the rain- lol.

I actually quite liked brood + 1/2. I must admit I was tempted to go Brood +1/2 + 1/2. I like handling the smaller boxes. I find I can tip up the 1/2 and look up through the bottom. That way I can get an idea of whats going on without necessarily having to lift frames. I prefer the smaller frames too. But as others have told me, the bees probably prefer a double and big frames.

 

[hemo]

Tipping g up boxes doesn't show cells on the comb face in the middle of a frame or one or two on the edges. If the Queen isn't restricted she doesn't really care.

 

[bobba]

Tipping g up boxes doesn't show cells on the comb face in the middle of a frame or one or two on the edges. If the Queen isn't restricted she doesn't really care.

Agreed. There is much you cannot tell from tipping. But I find I can get an idea of whats going with shallows. Particularity if it a new box and I just want a quick peep to see how they are drawing some comb. Or to get an idea of number of bees.

But I find I cannot see much when tipping deeps.

 

[bobba]

The miss says she saw a swarm go into H1 today! A queen returning from mating hopefully.

I opened the hive to have another look and put the clearer board on today.

Even as I approached the hive it looked quite busy, with lots of yellow pollen going in.

When I opened the hive, the bees looked like they had their mojo back. They are still short on numbers, particularly in the supers, but there were some bees trying to fill them.

I keep 2 spare stands, one for supers, and one for broods. I still could not see any brood or eggs n the brood boxes, but the bees were busy this time and all looked like there were working. After inspecting the broods and putting them back, I was pondering to maybe leave 1 super on. Then I noticed the bees in the supers all fanning like crazy!

My understanding is that its normally the bees with the queen that do the fanning, right?

So I had a look in the supers as best I could. The supers as so empty, no capping at all , and there were not many bees in them. So I think I stood a good chance of finding a queen if there was one there - but nothing.

Now paranoid about the fanning in the supers, I figured I would ask you lot 1st.

I am just so confused as to how this hive got into its current state and exactly what I should do next.

I thought I had a plan all worked out.....

 

[drex]

Bees use their wings to move air to get the water content of honey down