Ragwort

[Suelin]

Phew!!! That took some reading and digesting. It would seem that at the time of the research the thought was that Ragwort was not abundant enough in concentrated areas to cause a problem for health. That is a gratifying thought.

However the plant is definitely increasing and is abundant in many areas. It also does damage to the liver of Grazing herbivores over time so one has to question if the same could be true of humans consuming a little and then a little more if the effect to them would be dangerous over a period of time.

I am cheered though that bees obviously are not over fond of foraging on it and that those that do create foul tasting honey so one wouldn't want to eat it anyway.

I feel it is a situation that requires watching. As I said at the beginning of this, I know nothing about bees but I do appreciate their importance in the eco system. What do bees eat??? They make honey and gather pollen and I believe that they survive the winter on stored honey. (someone will put me right on those assumptions if I am wrong) It is understandable that the minute amount of Ragwort pollen might not affect a human being but a bee is a tiny thing. It would be a great lot to a bee surely?

I hope I'm not driving you all nuts with this but I am genuinely interested in my little theory and concerned for our bees.

Thankyou so much for all your thoughts and advice. I am learning an enormous amount.

 

[oliver90owner]

What do bees eat???

They eat pollen and drink nectar during the summer season.

Naturally, the diet for the winter months is honey (basically an energy supply for maintaining an adequate temperature within the cluster) which is about 80% sugars, 2% pollen and the rest water. Then, in the early spring (before adequate food sources are available, both pollen and honey are used for brooding.

Regards, RAB

 

[Skyhook]

It is understandable that the minute amount of Ragwort pollen might not affect a human being but a bee is a tiny thing. It would be a great lot to a bee surely?

Yes, a bee is a tiny thing- for which reason it will consume a proportionately tiny amount of honey, so the dose/bodyweight ratio would be likely to be similar.

Both ragwort and bees have been around an awful lot longer than humans. There is more ragwort now than there was in say the 1970's, as legislation and farming paractise were aiming at its control/eradication. What we are seeing now is probably a return to its historically and pre-historically 'normal' population.

 

[Chris Luck]

What do bees eat???

They eat pollen and drink nectar during the summer season.

Do bees eat pollen? I didn't think they did neither is there a requirement to do so as a protein food because a bee doesn't grow, it's already fully developed.

I understood that only the larval stage required protein, (pollen), to grow.

??????????????

Chris

 

[Skyhook]

Do bees eat pollen? I didn't think they did neither is there a requirement to do so as a protein food because a bee doesn't grow, it's already fully developed.

I understood that only the larval stage required protein, (pollen), to grow.

??????????????

Chris

I believe that bees do eat pollen in order to enable them to produce brood food and royal jelly- but I might have mis-remembered that.

 

[Chris Luck]

It does look that way, need to check that out.

Chris

 

[alanf]

However the plant is definitely increasing and is abundant in many areas. It also does damage to the liver of Grazing herbivores over time so one has to question if the same could be true of humans consuming a little and then a little more if the effect to them would be dangerous over a period of time.

:Long time since I did much formal botany but here goes.

'Ragwort' covers a genus (Senecio) with several species widespread and native in the UK, (vulgaris - groundsel and jacobaea - common ragwort) and others that our European strains of bees will have encountered before (squalidus - oxford ragwort).

They all produce pyrrolizidine alkaloids which are poisonous, but not to all herbivores. Cattle and horses normally avoid the fresh green plant but can eat it in hay. The quantities needed to do real damage, as some previous references have cited, are actually quite large, up to 7% of bodyweight which is substantial for large animals like cows. Sheep and goats cope quite well with ragwort and generally suffer no ill effects.

You have to go back to the basics of why a plant would produce toxins. In this case to protect itself from being eaten. So the toxin would have most effect in the fresh, young, green parts. Plants are quite capable of evolving the most efficient distribution strategy and there is little reason to have any concentrations in the nectar or pollen. The previously quoted study found low concentrations in honey. I didn't see any analysis of where the toxin is in the plant in the referenced report, it was not the objective but I would be surprised if the plant did not have the highest concentration of any toxin in the freshest greenest leaves. To risk an anecdote, groundsel seed is a favourite of sparrows and finches, not likely if it had high toxin levels.

As to the frequency of ragwort, it is known to propagate best in disturbed soil. The most likely places are overgrazed pasture where, for instance, horses are kept in concentration but fed separately such as stables. That 'ragwort is increasing' may be an observation based on growing where humans happen to visit frequently rather than an overall increase.

So, in brief, the plant parts that the bees use are the least likely to be harmful. if some toxin gets through, it has been around for thousands of years without being thought significant. If ragwort is increasing it is probably only where it it likely to be observed, which is not evidence that it is increasing generally. Unless you're doing something like eating a pot of borage honey a day there are far more worrying chemicals in your environment to worry about.

 

[BBG]

:Long time since I did much formal botany but here goes.
'

You're right, it's a very long time.

Ragwort is dangerous especially when consumed in hay.

Ragwort is one of only five dangerous weeds in the Weeds Act 59

The Ragwort is dangerous enough to have its own Act of Parliament - the Ragwort Control Act 2003

The Horse Society estimates ragwort kills 6000 ish horses a year.

Honey from ragwort is not a problem - providing the bees do not visit too many ragwort flowers.

From my own observations I would say ragwort is on the increase. We pulled fifty plants a day or two ago.

Please do not post misleading information on such important subjects - many would not question whether you were spewing out rubbish.

 

[tonybloke]

Ragwort is dangerous especially when consumed in hay.

Ragwort is one of only five dangerous weeds in the Weeds Act 59

The Ragwort is dangerous enough to have its own Act of Parliament - the Ragwort Control Act 2003

Please do not post misleading information on such important subjects - many would not question whether you were spewing out rubbish.

erm, it's actually more of a problem to cattle when it's been cut and used as fresh silage.

from my own observations, horses don't eat the stuff when fresh, only when in hay. and that's the hay-producers fault, not the plant!

 

[BBG]

erm, it's actually more of a problem to cattle when it's been cut and used as fresh silage.

from my own observations, horses don't eat the stuff when fresh, only when in hay. and that's the hay-producers fault, not the plant!

No 'erm' about it, it's unlikely to be eaten when fresh due to bitter taste but as hay (dried after cutting like grass?? OR being pulled up and left on the ground OR dying and drying) it becomes palatable.

It's effects are cumulative and horses can acquire a taste for it as well as inadvertently graze it.

How long were your observations continued and how close to the horse's mouth were they, i.e. were you able to see if the horse was nibbling small leaf within the sward.

This problem has been known and well documented for many, many years. It should not be played down.

 

[tonybloke]

No 'erm' about it, it's unlikely to be eaten when fresh due to bitter taste but as hay (dried after cutting like grass?? OR being pulled up and left on the ground OR dying and drying) it becomes palatable.

It's effects are cumulative and horses can acquire a taste for it as well as inadvertently graze it.

How long were your observations continued and how close to the horse's mouth were they, i.e. were you able to see if the horse was nibbling small leaf within the sward.

This problem has been known and well documented for many, many years. It should not be played down.

I owned a pony when younger, as did both my sisters. (my parents were part of the original team that set up the Soham Branch of the BHS Pony Club).our ponies were grazing in fields with ragwort in for the spring / early summer, and they never touched the stuff, as horses are a lot smarter than a lot of folk think.
before any fields were cut for hay, we did go through the field and hand-pull any ragwort plants, as horses have difficulty differentiating the various plants in baled hay.

many insects rely on ragwort, http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/currentprojects/Habitats+Action/Ragwort/ragwortfactfile

 

[BBG]

"were grazing in fields with ragwort"

As is normal, the pasture was obviously overgrazed, causing the proliferation of Ragwort. Such poor early lessons in equine husbandry account for the vast amount of poor stock cluttering the countryside and closure of overwhelmed rescue centres around the UK.

I've reared, bred, broken (yes, and the now fashionable whispering stuff), showed, jumped, hacked, hunted, raced and sent them for horse meat - who cares! - Ragwort is still poisonous.

Do you think the British Horse Society still organises "pulling parties" for fun alone? OR to quote :

'the BHS continue to strive to educate horse and landowners of the dangers Ragwort poses to grazing animals. Among our notable successes was the instrumental and essential role that the BHS played in the instigation of the Control of Ragwort Act (2003). '

Meanwhile, back at the bee shed - you'll be telling me next that you wrap your swarm in a skep up in a sheet, pour water on it to block what little ventilation there is in the tiny gaps between the cotton and transport it in a hot car to create bee hell.

Sorry forum - rant over

 

[tonybloke]

Meanwhile, back at the bee shed - you'll be telling me next that you wrap your swarm in a skep up in a sheet, pour water on it to block what little ventilation there is in the tiny gaps between the cotton and transport it in a hot car to create bee hell.

No, I collect them in a straw skep, tie the sheet around it, SPRAY SOME water onto the top knot to provide cooling via evaporation, and then transport them in my fully insulated van ( ex-fish merchants vehicle )
never had any dead bees due to overheating, have you?

 

[alanf]

Ragwort is dangerous especially when consumed in hay.

Please do not post misleading information on such important subjects - many would not question whether you were spewing out rubbish.

Hold on, the OP question and follow up was about ragwort toxins in honey and if it is a problem for bees or humans. What you might expect in a bee keeping forum.

There is no evidence that it is a problem in that specific context, what research there has been confirms that. All I said is that because of the way the botany works ragwort is unlikely to become a concern for bees or humans even if there appears to be a lot of it about. I even pointed out that it's the green foliage that you would expect to cause problems, the plant gains no advantage from toxins in the nectar or pollen.

Where has anybody claimed ragwort foliage cannot be a problem for horses in some locations?

From a botany angle, the ragworts are opportunistic, thriving on disturbed bare ground. It's a textbook ecology example that Oxford ragwort (Senecio squalidus) was originally growing in Italy around the volcanic ash on Etna and spread along the bare stones of railway tracks: http://www.bristol.ac.uk /biology/research/ecological/genetics/plantgenetics/oxfordragwortstory.html

Most of us can find an area of ragwort, I can see it in several paddocks let to families with a pony or two on the edge of town. From what I've seen they are common ragwort (Senecio jacobaea) or one of the many hybrids. Because there are many ponies on small patches and they are being fed they are not relying on the grazing for food. Just as well because the only green stuff in the paddock is often ragwort and thistles. Another ecology example where a few species thrive in a niche of disturbed ground because they have protection from grazers.

Ragwort is there because of the way the land is being used. That these paddocks have road access makes the ragwort very visible. It is definitely a problem for those with a horse or pony in one of these paddocks. In particular, controlling the ragwort is difficult because with many occupiers you can't clear the paddock to treat it and the high stocking level means there is always going to be disturbed ground. If you spray the ragwort it dries and may be eaten. Leaving it, then, is usually preferable to spraying, all adding to the visibility. Pulling by hand and removing is possible but paying for a contractor to pull is not going to be a landlord's first choice because it's expensive. Often, it is left for the occupiers to sort out for themselves, so it gets talked about.

Off the original topic, but nothing that can't be backed up with observation and evidence.

 

[Botanist]

You're right, it's a very long time.

Ragwort is dangerous especially when consumed in hay.

Ragwort is one of only five dangerous weeds in the Weeds Act 59

The term is "Injurious weeds" Those of us who have studied Latin will know that in this context it means harmful to the interests of agriculture.
The other weeds are not toxic.

The Ragwort is dangerous enough to have its own Act of Parliament - the Ragwort Control Act 2003

It was a private member's bill as a result of lobbying with FALSE statistics.
You can look at this link to see a polician who is involved with the British Horse Society going over the top with blatantly false information
Baroness Masham Many Errors on Ragwort

The Horse Society estimates ragwort kills 6000 ish horses a year.

And companies recently got hammered by the Advertising Standards Authority for repeating this as the statistical methods used make the figure obviously false.

See
British Horse Society Ragwort and Advertising Standards Authority

Honey from ragwort is not a problem - providing the bees do not visit too many ragwort flowers.

From my own observations I would say ragwort is on the increase. We pulled fifty plants a day or two ago.

The government surveys show in general that it is DECREASING

Please do not post misleading information on such important subjects - many would not question whether you were spewing out rubbish.

 

[b0mbus]

Hello. I stumbled across this forum by accident but found the topic interesting, although allow me to make clear I am not an expert on honeybees.

Nevertheless, I have found Ragwort to be an extremely important plant for Bumblebees especially. I allow several dense stands to grow in my garden and they are easily the most popular plants of the summer for bumblebees- outperforming all of my other ornamental and wild flowers. I have not seen any honeybees on Ragwort, howver, though I sometimes find it hard to distinguish between solitary bees and honeybees. I believe what I have seen using ragwort were solitary bees and not honeybees.

I would encourage those who do not keep livestock to allow growth of ragwort. It has tremendous conservation value. As I understand it, ragwort is not a nectar source but a pollen source, and all bumblebees must continue to eat pollen throughout their lives. This extends their lifetime by approximately 2 months. Studies have shown that even with an abundant supply of nectar, mortaility of bumblebees is determined by the amount of pollen they are able to consume daily. This explains why Queens need to be so much larger than workers and why they must gorge themselves on pollen prior to hibernation and again following hibernation. This evening I counted 15 different bumblebees on one small patch of ragwort. If I didn't know better I'd swear it was communal, popular because so many other bumblebees were present. Ragwort has a bad reputation but I will swear that it is a very important bumblebee plant (perhaps because other pollen sources are not so widespread or readily available).

 

[b0mbus]

Also thought I'd add this which I found:

Ted Hooper’s classic ‘Guide to Bees and Honey’ says “Honey from ragwort is extremely offensive in smell, but once crystallised this is lost and it is as acceptable as any other honey.”

I'd encourage a read of what Buglife has found regarding Ragwort and its importance for conservation purposes:
http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/currentprojects/Habitats+Action/Ragwort/ragwortfactfile

 

[Skylark]

Anyone know what colour ragwort pollen is ?

 

[Juststarting]

from this week saturday telegraph

In Robin Pages article about ragwort

"Professor Derek Knottenbelt of Liverpool University, the country’s leading authority on the toxicity of ragwort, will not eat honey from areas infested with ragwort, neither will his family – no Scottish honey for them, then. "

 

[Erichalfbee]

Anyone know what colour ragwort pollen is ?

I'm sure I have read somewhere, New Scientist possibly, that there are two forms one having red pollen and one yellow.