questionable teaching or not?

[Newbeeneil]

I'm not prepared to name the BKA on the open forum as this would be unfair to my friend. However this is not the first time I've heard from this group that bees must fit into a single national brood. Anything else is considered an aberration from their point of view. @Newbeeneil as you comment, there are a number of other unusual (to others) practices endorsed in this BKA. If the queen produced bees that had a poor behavioural trait then removing from the gene pool would be one thing, but because she was too prolific and in a teaching apiary? I just don't understand the logic other than a determination that all things must conform and be controlled.

In my opinion, they are being one dimensional in the beekeeping that they train new beekeepers in. My friend has just been asking why they take these approaches and not really finding the answers explain the rational for it. Without seeing different approaches and scenarios how would anyone have any idea how to approach the issues bees throw at us on a regular basis? I don't believe a one size fits all approach to beekeeping is healthy for beekeepers or the bees

Mint Bee,
I've said before on this forum I don't come here to debate but to offer my observations and experience. I believe my previous post was just that, an outline of the facts as I see them.
If your friend is not happy with their experience at the apiary I would suggest they relate that to the person in question, rather than you raising it on a national forum, who may be able to take some time to explain the reason for the philosophy.
If after that conversation they are still disappointed I'm sure one of the other BKA's in the area would be very keen to have new members.
If you would like to discuss the philosophy with the person in question I would PM him on this forum as I know he reads these threads every morning over his muesli.

 

[ericbeaumont]

beginners would probably not be suited to large colonies initially

I agree, that is a useful outcome and gives reassurance while skills and confidence develop. For the same reason the commended beginner route is to start with a nuc, rather than a full colony.

 

[pargyle]

If you would like to discuss the philosophy with the person in question I would PM him on this forum as I know he reads these threads every morning over his muesli.

And in many respects is a very competent, exceedingly experienced and knowledgeable beekeeper ... and actually, he's not as intractable and inflexible as some would suggest. Get to know him and talk bees with him and you will find someone who is open to ideas and different ways of doing things ... Don't ever judge a book by its cover.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Poor beekeeping is poor beekeeping, however you want to paint it

PPB says it all

 

[Michael Palmer]

In your eyes. Personal choice. I am not saying I agree with it but I don't know all the facts.

You're too kind. The guy is being ridiculous. Too prolific?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Surely its a good experience for beginners to experience big colonies second hand before they get one of their own totally by surprise

 

[Robinredcar]

I cant see a fault with wanting to keep bees on a standard brood box, that is what a natinoal hive was designed for not brood and a half or double brood?
British bees before mass imports of foreign bees where kept on a standard brood box?

 

[Ian123]

I cant see a fault with wanting to keep bees on a standard brood box, that is what a natinoal hive was designed for not brood and a half or double brood?
British bees before mass imports of foreign bees where kept on a standard brood box?

Give the bees what they need it’s quite simple, that’s the difference between a beekeeper and a flow hive owner. The national hive is a bunch of boxes you and the bees can decide how to use them!!!!! As to British bees being kept in a single bb. Some bloke probably said the same about skeps

 

[Ian123]

This hives already produced a brood box of drawn and filled frames sitting on a smaller banker hive. They also require another super to top it off I’ll inspect them in veil and shorts Heaven forbid 4 broods

 

[Mint Bee]

there is a divergence of opinion that i believe never the twain shall meet, so I shall leave it there

 

[Robinredcar]

Give the bees what they need it’s quite simple, that’s the difference between a beekeeper and a flow hive owner. The national hive is a bunch of boxes you and the bees can decide how to use them!!!!! As to British bees being kept in a single bb. Some bloke probably said the same about skeps

That would be on the prolifically of the bees? Do you think they designed the brood box to home the brood or just some of it ? Foreign bees need bigger brood boxs hence why the brood boxs are much larger would you not agree? The problem is hear we have such a mix and match it seems bees tend to need bigger brood boxs or brood and a half, and some more native types do to, the apiary in question sounds like they breed for less prolific bees and I'd guess teach with what they have I don't see a problem with that.
If your suggesting they should cater for diffrent bees to I would advise every teaching apiary keeps every type of bee lol not likley to happen is it?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Foreign bees need bigger brood boxs hence why the brood boxs are much larger would you not agree?

bit like most of the prevalently AMM bees I have then

the apiary in question sounds like they breed for less prolific bees

Breeding for mediocrity - a great objective

 

[Ian123]

I’m suggesting good beekeepers are adaptable and offer bees what ever space they require. Being adaptable is part the learning curve for many who keep livestock. The term “bees don’t read the same books” was not invented for nothing. I’d suggest more hives have been designed for the beekeepers sake, probably relying on the fact the bees are adaptable. Given the first bees we started with it’s probably a good idea if teaching apiaries had different bees, good bees are indeed a revelation

 

[JamezF]

Do you think they designed the brood box to home the brood or just some of it ? Foreign bees need bigger brood boxs hence why the brood boxs are much larger would you not agree?

I have read, though I have no idea whether it is true or not and sadly I can't even recall where I read it, that at least some common hive designs are the size they are because they were made from other boxes that the original users happened to have easily available and were not particularly related to the space that the colony was believed to require.

James

 

[TomH]

Perhaps there are other reasons for keeping them in a single BB?

We had a talk from Tom Seeley a couple of years ago about his 'Darwinian Beekeeping' methods. One of his suggestions as part of this, was limiting brood/nest size to a single BB and single super which would also keep the varroa population in check, giving the bees more of a chance to respond.

 

[Robinredcar]

bit like most of the prevalently AMM bees I have then

Breeding for mediocrity - a great objective

If you read what I wrote I stated some native bees do to?
I've been lucky enough to get some very close to native bees and the man who bred them keeps his on brood and a half British nationals and ill be doing the same when they are ready.
Some people still keep none prolific bees on standard brood boxs, why wouldnt they if thats what their bees need and no more?!
From what I've read our native bees where kept on single brood, again it makes sense or they would have just designed the brood box bigger don't you think?
That's not breeding for mediocre that's breeding for the climate the old native bees evolved to, they didn't need great massive brood boxs.

 

[Murox]

I have read, though I have no idea whether it is true or not and sadly I can't even recall where I read it, that at least some common hive designs are the size they are because they were made from other boxes that the original users happened to have easily available and were not particularly related to the space that the colony was believed to require.

James

Langstroth is said to have based his on the dimensions of a case of champagne.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

From what I've read our native bees where kept on single brood, again it makes sense or they would have just designed the brood box bigger don't you think?

and going by what my grandfather told me, back in those days beekeepers very much kept them with the same mindset as skeppists - rather than use a bigger box, be prepared to see them swarm every year and collect them from where they landed.

 

[blackcloud]

This hives already produced a brood box of drawn and filled frames sitting on a smaller banker hive. They also require another super to top it off I’ll inspect them in veil and shorts Heaven forbid 4 View attachment 32813broods

But you have a fully kitted-out little helper nowadays

 

[Murox]

and going by what my grandfather told me, back in those days beekeepers very much kept them with the same mindset as skeppists - rather than use a bigger box, be prepared to see them swarm every year and collect them from where they landed.

That brings to mind George Bernard Shaw ‘Alas Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history that men never learn anything from history’.