Queenless since April

[John Snow]

Hi, has anyone else had a queenless hive that doesn't build qcs when you repeatedly put frames/comb with eggs in it. Despite it having had loads of queen cups beforehand?
At one time there was an emergency cell that looked like it then hatched but still no Q or eggs or larvae.
Is it another case of failed matings/ lost virgins?
One thing's for sure I know they don't move eggs from one frame to another easily.

 

[elainemary]

Hi, has anyone else had a queenless hive that doesn't build qcs when you repeatedly put frames/comb with eggs in it. Despite it having had loads of queen cups beforehand?
At one time there was an emergency cell that looked like it then hatched but still no Q or eggs or larvae.
Is it another case of failed matings/ lost virgins?
One thing's for sure I know they don't move eggs from one frame to another easily.

Sounds you have a queen in your hive. Also supersedure - the one cell that had emerged. Can take 4 weeks for a queen to mate from emergence and get laying. Be patient. Re your point on not coming back from a mating flight, add another test frame to check and to keep laying workers at bay.

 

[enrico]

Need some time frames! Patience is a virtue with virgins! It takes a while for her to lay enough eggs for you even to notice!

 

[John Snow]

Yep, I'm pretty good at spotting queen's and have put test frames in three times.

However, I reckon on my inspection yesterday I did spot an egg in a queen cup. I saw a bee with its head in there doing something and checked it out. And voila an egg. Only one out of at least a dozen cups.

The hive is getting grumpier.

Maybe there has been one failed requeening.

Maybe you're right there is a queen in there. Well she's not laying that's for sure.

Patience has never been one of my assets. Partly why I took up beekeeping.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Six weeks. Six weeks from emergence today when I give up on them. Pretty common some years if the weather is bad.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

before getting everyone excited, when did you last actually see a queen?
I'm assuming there is no brood at all in there now, but when did you last have brood (larvae and/or sealed cells)
Maybe a bit more of this colony's history would help?
If there has been no brood for ages then all of a sudden a single solitary egg in a queen cup I would be thinking 'laying worker'

 

[John Snow]

First inspection mid march was the last of the capped brood. And there were loads of bees at that stage, she must have had a last ditch egg laying effort because she knew her time was running short. It was a very strong hive last year but the queen was a veteran of 3 years so I knew it was going to requeen at some point.

I just assumed that when I put a frame in from the next door hive which is in rude health, they would recruit an egg and make a QC as they have done every other time I've tried it.

I did wonder whether putting brood and eggs in makes the bees sometimes think everything is ok.

Maybe the emergency requeening was too early for there to be drones.

It has taken seemingly forever for there to be drones here this year (Cumbria)

 

[John Snow]

And to answer your question the queen was not present first inspection, no eggs or larvae just capped brood/ emerging bees

 

[enrico]

You say you repeatedly put frames in and have had no queen cells, how often and how far apart and when was the last one?

 

[Brewer24]

You’re not alone here mate. I have one hive (TB) that I assumed swarmed in early April when I was away. As I thought it was too early in the year to swarm I found QC’s and knocked them back (stupidly) thinking I’d caught them in time.
Put a cut out of eggs in, they disappeared!
Don’t know how many times I’ve gone thru them looking for a queen. I can usually see a queen even unmarked but none of us are infallible.
Bit bullet and bought a mated queen.
she was accepted without bother.
Even more weird is when I checked after a week I found the queen. But no marking so assumed it had come off.
That was two weeks ago now and still no eggs that can see. Easy to check because the hive is getting honey bound!
I’ve put some some unused comb in today to maybe give her some room to lay, hopefully.
I’m feeling there may have been a VQ and she killed my bought in mated queen. But why was the mated queen accepted so readily.
Not looking for any replies many thanks, just comforting a fellow beek!

 

[elainemary]

You’re not alone here mate. I have one hive (TB) that I assumed swarmed in early April when I was away. As I thought it was too early in the year to swarm I found QC’s and knocked them back (stupidly) thinking I’d caught them in time.
Put a cut out of eggs in, they disappeared!
Don’t know how many times I’ve gone thru them looking for a queen. I can usually see a queen even unmarked but none of us are infallible.
Bit bullet and bought a mated queen.
she was accepted without bother.
Even more weird is when I checked after a week I found the queen. But no marking so assumed it had come off.
That was two weeks ago now and still no eggs that can see. Easy to check because the hive is getting honey bound!
I’ve put some some unused comb in today to maybe give her some room to lay, hopefully.
I’m feeling there may have been a VQ and she killed my bought in mated queen. But why was the mated queen accepted so readily.
Not looking for any replies many thanks, just comforting a fellow beek!

Best to put in v young larva (first day changing from egg to larva) on your test frame / patch rather than eggs alone. Some colonies will eat the eggs, they don’t eat larva if queenless. So they ate your eggs and a queen was there anyway which is why you had nothing left on the test patch. If you put in a patch of larva it will make the transition to brood if queenright or be made into emergency cell(s) if queenless. Just mentioning for any future tests

 

[elainemary]

And to answer your question the queen was not present first inspection, no eggs or larvae just capped brood/ emerging bees

Be good to know when the last test frame was put in your colony. The reason for putting a test frame in, is not only to find out if your colony is queen right or queenless, but also to keep laying workers at bay. The open brood on your test frame produces pheromones which stop workers developing their vestigial ovaries. For laying workers to develop a colony not only has to be queenless it has to have no brood as well.

Laying workers can develop quite quickly depending on the size of the colony as soon as brood is no longer there. That’s why when I’m waiting for a queen to lay , I keep records of timings and start to put test frames in c 4 weeks after the time she has emerged from her queen cell.

The timings approx for future ref are 16 days to make a queen (12 days from the point workers start feeding a small larva), 5 days after emergence to become sexually mature, mating up to 3-4 weeks, further couple of days before the semen moves to her spermatheca and she starts laying. So it can take 5-6 weeks from emergence for a queen to start laying.
Or as short as a couple of weeks.

 

[Moobee]

Had a hive last year that was definitely queenless and refused point blank to create a queen until I repeatedly put a frame of eggs in. They rejected two punches of eggs and another queen. But never any laying workers...

 

[John Snow]

Ok update. Eggs and small queen present FINALLY.
Tried to mark her but kept losing her!
Will wait till she gets bigger and slower....
Patience dear, patience........

Thanks for the replies.

 

[enrico]

Ok update. Eggs and small queen present FINALLY.
Tried to mark her but kept losing her!
Will wait till she gets bigger and slower....
Patience dear, patience........

Thanks for the replies.

so do you know if she came from earlier frames of eggs or ones since your post?

 

[John Snow]

Must be from the original frame of eggs I put in because she's mated and laying.

I'm not surprised I missed her on all my previous inspections, I find it really tough to see dark coloured queen's. She doesn't even have light legs.
See attached photo.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes she’s quite black. The orange ones are easier to spot fair enough