Queen introduction issues

[elainemary]

I had a failed unite over newspaper recently. A mature mated queen in a colony that I united to a queenless colony that I’d been using as a cell raiser. I checked the unite after a couple of days (probably too soon) saw the queen and eggs & all seemed fine, I removed the newspaper and dismantled the unite. A week later no queen, no eggs, emergency cells.

So I waited til the united but now queenless colony was hopelessly queenless, double checked with a test comb and decided to unite to a Nuc with a recently mated queen with 5 frames of brood. I added the test comb from the queenless part, to the Nuc before transferring to another brood box and united & after taking down the emergency cells on the test comb. Given the previous failed unite, I decided to unite the Nuc not just over newspaper but as an extra precaution I put the queen into a press in cage onto a comb with stores, some empty cells and several nurse bees to look after her, on Friday.

Looked in the hive today (Sunday afternoon) all bees had mingled. Bees in the new colony seemed v calm and around the press in cage and adjacent combs. I checked she was still inside the press in cage, she was. Then I went through all the combs in the Nuc part and there were several new emergency cells on the test comb and a couple on adjacent combs which I took down. I presumed this was down to the queen being in the cage and perhaps not leaving enough bee space around it, for the bees to pick up & transfer her pheromones to the rest of the colony. All the bees on adjacent combs and around the cage were very calm but as I felt cautious from the failed unite last time, I decided to add fondant to the press in cage and open the side tab, allowing her to be eaten out over the next 24h and reassembled the hive.

Now wondering if I’ve done the right thing….Should I have waited til checking no more emergency cells were being made before doing this? Should I check to see if she’s been released tomorrow morning? Or should I just wait a few days and leave them alone?

What do you advise & why?
Thanks
Elaine

 

[Patrick1]

So many issues in one message, I would just comment on some basics as I am sure you will get lots of good advice soon enough.

Leave the bees alone once you have committed to an action, 7 days ish.

The press in cages are really only for inspections or slow release as the bees will eat into it and release the queen. As the didn’t that throws up another subject.

Sounds like another queen is the problem maybe ?

When testing the hive for a queen presence you don’t need to sacrifice a whole frame of eggs and brood, cut our a piece the size of a matchbox with eggs, then cut out the same size area in the hive you suspect is queen less, insert at the top of a frame in the foundation, they only need one cell !

Caution against leaving a suspected queen less hives too long, we introduce queens after 24 hours, having checked every frame properly for queen cells.

 

[Erichalfbee]

When testing the hive for a queen presence you don’t need to sacrifice a whole frame of eggs and brood, cut our a piece the size of a matchbox with eggs, then cut out the same size area in the hive you suspect is queen less, insert at the top of a frame in the foundation, they only need one cell !

Or use a whole frame for three days and return it whence it came

 

[elainemary]

So many issues in one message, I would just comment on some basics as I am sure you will get lots of good advice soon enough.

Leave the bees alone once you have committed to an action, 7 days ish.

The press in cages are really only for inspections or slow release as the bees will eat into it and release the queen. As the didn’t that throws up another subject.

Sounds like another queen is the problem maybe ?

When testing the hive for a queen presence you don’t need to sacrifice a whole frame of eggs and brood, cut our a piece the size of a matchbox with eggs, then cut out the same size area in the hive you suspect is queen less, insert at the top of a frame in the foundation, they only need one cell !

Caution against leaving a suspected queen less hives too long, we introduce queens after 24 hours, having checked every frame properly for queen cells.

Thanks for reply. In the queenless cell raiser I did find a virgin queen as one of the roller cages had come off. I removed her and tested with a comb of open brood before uniting to the queen right hive initially. The second test comb given to the failed unite had emergency cells on and I removed these and gave back to the colony it came from (the Nuc) before I united it to, so knew I wasn’t ‘wasting’ a whole comb. I also very carefully checked the queenless part of the unite and the Nuc for any cells before uniting, shaking bees off combs on the queenless part which was behaving in a queenless way and no cells. Don’t think because of these results there is another queen involved.
I thought a press in cage would work as well as a cage with a tab and give more bees contact through the mesh to spread her pheromones around.
Curious why emergency cells would be made. I used a press in cage on another colony in a similar situation when reintroducing a queen back into a cell raiser and no emergency cells were made, so curious why it has happened in this case and whether best to check for more or not, so I can learn from what has happened.
Think your advice is right about leaving be, once committing to an action.

 

[elainemary]

Or use a whole frame for three days and return it whence it came

Yes did that Dani, took the test frame from the Nuc and returned it to it before uniting.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I thought the point of push in cages was to turn a transported queen into a laying one which would then be more easily accepted.

 

[elainemary]

I thought the point of push in cages was to turn a transported queen into a laying one which would then be more easily accepted.

Yes that’s the main purpose, but because of the issues I had with this queenless colony last time I united it, I wanted to be extra cautious and thought the push in cage would protect the queen in the Nuc further and as well as any other type of cage. I kept the side entrance closed and only added fondant after seeing how calm the 2 parts were after a couple of days into the unite. I thought as the surface area of the press in cage is bigger her pheromones would get spread about more making the introduction safer. Don’t understand why emergency cells are being made and what is best to do now.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

With the queen constrained, I have seen emergency cells as you describe; more likely if there is a queen excluder between the two boxes. I would be inclined to leave them for a few days.

 

[elainemary]

I thought the point of push in cages was to turn a transported queen into a laying one which would then be more easily accepted.

Just read an Interesting article in this months Beecraft from a reader who had regular problems with queen introduction and he read around / looked at original research by Butler at Rothamstead.

Boosted his success (albeit in one year of introducing 10 queens) from 50% to 100%, by using a Butler type cage that has a larger surface area and hole size allowing better antennal contact and spread of pheromone which is critical for good acceptance.

Whilst my situation is a bit different re colony status, has given me some hope that the emergency cells were being made as I pushed the brood combs too close to the large press in cage, reducing the ability of bees to have contact with the queen. Hoping giving more space around it which I did on Sunday, will have helped - will find out later this week. Interesting he concludes also that looking too soon causes the queen to be killed, is refuted by the Butler research. They checked every day and released her to check bees reaction before recaging

Thought I’d share re your question whether press in cages are used just for a travelled queen. Can see the benefit of wider use for other types of introduction given this research due to their surface area and ability to spread pheromone more effectively than a small cage.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I tend to use the yellow plastic cages. Fondant in one end and held between two frames horizontally so there is only access by bees on the two long sides. Then the queen can't get nibbled feet as she can escape if she wants to (has been reported on here in the past). generally good sucess - but then introduction with just smoke also works for me. I am generally introducing my own queens to my own colonies so they will be genetically similar.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I once had one of these yellow transport cages completely propolised. I got to it just in time. Put the queen and attendants in a push in cage over emerging brood snd all was fine.