Queen cells, overcrowding, and undrawn foundation

[warts]

Hi All
Thanks in advance for answers to this one.

Scenario.

Hive attempted to swarm. Thought I had removed all unrequited QCs bar one. However I nuc I leave out (just in case) was discovered a week later with a swarm in it. I assumed it was mine from the hive I had sorted. Therefore I assumed it was an unmated queen (If you can tell the difference, tips would help for future assistance).

It wasn't, what consider a very big number of bees. So I left them. A week later, when checking one of my other hives I noticed quite a lot of activity in the nuc. Part of me thought I should leave well alone, but there was a lot, and I was worried I had left them in a box that was not big enough for them.

On opening them up, I noticed that a) some of the foundation hadn't been drawn out on some of the frames, but at the same time, they had built some comb in the feeder section of the nuc (one of those poly ones - I do like these). Thinking that they may repeat, and also the fact that there was a lot of activity (OSR), I just transferred them to a full size hive, and thought I would give them a week or two to draw the rest of the frames out, the queen to be left in peace to ensure she mates, and went on my merry way.

So what did I find yesterday? Just over half the foundation drawn out properly, and then half of some frames with nothing drawn out one side, and some or Dali creation in the empty space from the opposite frame....and four QCs.

The frames where correctly spaced, just for some reason, they have completely avoided drawing out some of the sides of the frames, leaving a hive with gaps of brood, stores, and drawn out foundation.

Questions:
1. In hindsight, maybe I should have put a super on top while the flow (though drawing to a close) was still evident - but would this have encouraged them to build out the frames in the brood chamber properly?

2. What is the best way to resolve this? Some of the drawn out frames appear to be 'folds' or 'waves' over folds/ waves on one side, and then just undrawn on the opposite frame so it can fit in.

I was just waiting for the queen to start laying before I gave these bees away to a good home and now, despite the fact that she is laying, I can't.

3. I have thought about splitting into two, but this seems daft as though a decent size, it isn't as big as I think it should be for a spilt (obviously, this view is relative, and based on my amateurish opinion). Alternatively, I wondered whether I should remove some of these bizarrely shaped frames (sadly no picture, I wasn't expecting to find anything like this). What is the best way to deal with this?


4. I am pretty sure there was newly laid eggs, so am assuming the queen is still alive and kicking in there, but I did, with hindsight, possibly do the wrong thing, and pulled down all QCs just to buy me a few days time to work out best plan of action, before I go in to sort them out. What would you have done differently? I ask, because I think I have done a knee- jerk response because I wasn't prepared for what I found...and am curious what a real beekeeper would have done

Sorry for long post.

Sally

 

[richardbees]

Sally

I got lost half way through -

Can you describe your current hive/nuc situation?

 

[oliver90owner]

Warts,

Presumably you A/Sed but forgot the latter stages so did not complete? Hence the cast?

Mated queens will resume laying within a very few days - probably only two or three, but certainly quicker than a virgin getting mated etc.

Casts are generally much smaller than a prime (especially from the same hive).

Primes don't normally fit nucs!

1. No, probably no difference. Quality of the foundation is a possibility; peculiar bees is less of one!

2. Change it for fresh.

3. Don't split further.

4. Poor laying pattern perhaps encouraged the formation of supercedure cells, or she may be a poor queen. I would probably, if no reason for this bizarre activity was apparent, terminate the queen and unite the bees with some others. Only alternative was point 2 and let them try again.

RAB

 

[warts]

Thanks Rab

Yes, I did an AS, but think I must have missed a QC when I went back in to remove the others later (is that what you meant?). In my mind, it was a cast given it's size.

The foundation was bought last year, it was labelled as 'premier' from a well known supplier so am assuming this is my fault in in how I have stored it or the fact that I built it up over winter and placed it in nucs ready for use, and left in a barn. Maybe I should have kept it in its cellophane until a little closer to when I needed it.

I will, I think, have a go, like you suggest at changing the foundation and see what they do with new, fresher foundation, and if no joy, will unite.

Thanks again

Sally

 

[warts]

Sally

I got lost half way through -

Can you describe your current hive/nuc situation?

Hi Richard

Yes, I didn't do a great job of explaining this did I.

My hive consists of frames where some sides of the frames have been completely ignored, and the frame opposite, those facing the undrawn foundation is drawn out in 'folds' or 'waves'. Hence, the bees do not have a full compliment of frames to lay in/ keep stores in.

Hence, the bees have built a number of QCs, which I really wasn't expecting.

Regards

Sally

 

[oliver90owner]

is that what you meant

Sort of. Specifically later than six days after the last eggs were deposited and moving the parent colony just before anticipated emergence if two cells were left (or just in case a queen cell had been missed, in your case).

RAB

 

[Teemore]

So what did I find yesterday? Just over half the foundation drawn out properly, and then half of some frames with nothing drawn out one side, and some or Dali creation in the empty space from the opposite frame....and four QCs.

The frames where correctly spaced, just for some reason, they have completely avoided drawing out some of the sides of the frames, leaving a hive with gaps of brood, stores, and drawn out foundation.

After the bees started drawing out the foundation, did you do an inspection and move the frames around/ put them in back to front?

I have observed on a few occasions that a beekeeper has been a little too eager to inspect a newly hived Nucleus colony, they have turned around frames that bees were beginning to draw out "to encourage them to draw the other side". All this has done in some cases is stunt colony growth, particularly where the weather turned wet and cool. The bees then preferred to draw burr comb under the frames in the center of the brood nest where it is warmer and thus easier for them to draw wax.

I have also noticed that if there is a lot of bee traffic across undrawn or partially drawn foundation, it becomes "varnished" with whatever the bees track across it and it never gets drawn out. This tends not to happen in strong colonies.

 

[warts]

Hi Teemore
A good question. I do try to lift out and replace frames in the same order and direction, however, they are not marked (my boyfriend thinks I should number the frames to help with ensuring they are kept in the correct order), and I cannot rule out that I might have accidentally put them in the wrong order/orientation, despite using a nuc box (temp store as I go through frames) to help me keep them ordered and orientated correctly.

I may start to number my frames to double check that they do go back in the right order.

Thanks for the tip off

Sally

 

[oliver90owner]

It is actually difficult to get them in the wrong order if you work systematically - unless several are removed at the same time. If worried about orientation, a blob of paint at one end is all that is needed as long as they are initially all installed with the blobs at the same end! If taking several frames out (searching for the queen, perhaps) make a habit of placing them in another box in the same order. Don't clean off burr comb until they are replaced - often a tell-tale sign of which frames fit where.

I have used coloured spacers at one end on supers occasionally, but the habit never lasted long. Frames might get shifted from ends to middle to get them drawn (or filled, if another super has been added), or frames might be shifted to a different colony - no flow and little stores, per eg). One just needs to be aware if any honey frames get drawn unevenly and need to be kept adjacent until extracted.

 

[galileo]

Hi Sally,

Framed foundation left in a hive over winter can sometimes corrugate due to contraction of the wiring. It's often enough to put the girls off when it comes to drawing it out. If that's what's happened here and you can get the wavy foundation out of the frames without damage, a few seconds under a warm hair dryer and an overnight pressing between two flat, heavyish objects, is all that it takes to fix it. If there's crappy comb started on it though, your best bet would be to melt it and replace with new.

 

[oliver90owner]

galileo,

Do you know the actual linear expansion of this wire? I can assure you any contraction in length is miniscule and totally irrelevant in terms of wax v. the wires.

 

[galileo]

You're more than likely right about that. I was relating something I'd been told and wasn't sufficiently pedantic to investigate the various coefficients. Dunno but suffice to say that it warps in the cold and warmth/pressing sets it right. As ever, I sit gratefully corrected.