Q right raiser and virgin emergence

[jeff33]

For various reasons I would like to introduce virgins instead of queen cells in my 1st round of mini nucs this year and will probably let the virgins emerge in my Q right colony. They will obviously all be individually caged and only left for a few hours b4 being transferred. My set up is usually bb + queen, 2 supers, demaree board, bb with cells. Any risk of the bees swarming on emergence of virgins? Thanks

 

[B+.]

For various reasons I would like to introduce virgins instead of queen cells in my 1st round of mini nucs this year and will probably let the virgins emerge in my Q right colony. They will obviously all be individually caged and only left for a few hours b4 being transferred. My set up is usually bb + queen, 2 supers, demaree board, bb with cells. Any risk of the bees swarming on emergence of virgins? Thanks

I think you'd be better off introducing the virgins (in cages) into the nucs stocked with young bees and a queen excluder over the entrance Jeff. This is the way I do it (having had the queens emerge in an incubator and numbered first).
There would certainly be a risk of the colony swarming with the laying queen, particularly if the cells had been "finished" in that colony.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Nice to see you back on here again B+.
You have been missed.

 

[jeff33]

I think you'd be better off introducing the virgins (in cages) into the nucs stocked with young bees and a queen excluder over the entrance Jeff. This is the way I do it (having had the queens emerge in an incubator and numbered first).
There would certainly be a risk of the colony swarming with the laying queen, particularly if the cells had been "finished" in that colony.

Thanks Paul. I run hives with that set up and let a single queen emerge and mate in the top box with no swarming below but it's different to having 10+ virgins emerging at once.
I wanted to save myself a bit of work with having to alter my mini nucs to have space to fit in the roller cage.

 

[B+.]

Nice to see you back on here again B+.
You have been missed.

Thanks Mark

 

[Curly green finger's]

Thanks Paul. I run hives with that set up and let a single queen emerge and mate in the top box with no swarming below but it's different to having 10+ virgins emerging at once.
I wanted to save myself a bit of work with having to alter my mini nucs to have space to fit in the roller cage.

What nucs are you using which you can't get a cage into Jeff?

 

[B+.]

What nucs are you using which you can't get a cage into Jeff?

I can recommend these cages. They're thin enough to slip between frames and they're cheap enough to have lots of spares - just in case. They're a sort-of Butler-type cage but has a hinged wooden door (I generally wrap an elastic band over to hold it closed - I've lost valuable queens before when the door opened at the wrong time).
Another approach would be to remove a frame from the outside and slide the frames over.

 

[jeff33]

Ha sorry, I meant the roller cages don't fit in my home made mini nucs. I need to do a grove on the top bars with the router or reduce the width of my feeder. It's easy enough though.
I am trying to save myself additional work. I don't have an incubator so Qcs are caged in the finisher around day 10 and usually removed on day 14 and placed without the cage in mini nucs. Some of these never emerge hence why I want to introduce virgins this year. I may buy an egg incubator and place the cells in there for the last couple of days and introduce after.
I thought you could just run virgins in a mini nuc which has just been filled with young bees?

 

[jeff33]

What nucs are you using which you can't get a cage into Jeff?

Home made ones

 

[BigAshW]

Ha sorry, I meant the roller cages don't fit in my home made mini nucs. I need to do a grove on the top bars with the router or reduce the width of my feeder. It's easy enough though.
I am trying to save myself additional work. I don't have an incubator so Qcs are caged in the finisher around day 10 and usually removed on day 14 and placed without the cage in mini nucs. Some of these never emerge hence why I want to introduce virgins this year. I may buy an egg incubator and place the cells in there for the last couple of days and introduce after.
I thought you could just run virgins in a mini nuc which has just been filled with young bees?

From what I understand if you introduce the bees and virgin all in one go and spray with syrup then acceptance is pretty high. But acceptance then goes down for the second batch as the bees have formed a cohesive colony by then.

 

[B+.]

Ha sorry, I meant the roller cages don't fit in my home made mini nucs. I need to do a grove on the top bars with the router or reduce the width of my feeder. It's easy enough though.
I am trying to save myself additional work. I don't have an incubator so Qcs are caged in the finisher around day 10 and usually removed on day 14 and placed without the cage in mini nucs. Some of these never emerge hence why I want to introduce virgins this year. I may buy an egg incubator and place the cells in there for the last couple of days and introduce after.
I thought you could just run virgins in a mini nuc which has just been filled with young bees?

If you are going to run a virgin into the entrance, dunk her in tepid water first. Virgins can run pretty fast and this will slow her down. Another suggestion would be to drop her in some liquid honey so the workers immediately come to lick her clean. This last suggestion should be done carefully as you don't want to kill her in the process - just wet enough for the workers to lick her clean.

 

[jeff33]

From what I understand if you introduce the bees and virgin all in one go and spray with syrup then acceptance is pretty high. But acceptance then goes down for the second batch as the bees have formed a cohesive colony by then.

Yes I wouldn't run her on the 2nd batch, I usually get rid of the bees inside and put some new young bees.

 

[Curly green finger's]

As Paul has said tepid water, or shrup water spray.
I did three virgins last year and not in that way either .
I would get an incubator Jeff they are very handy.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I can recommend these cages. They're thin enough to slip between frames and they're cheap enough to have lots of spares - just in case. They're a sort-of Butler-type cage but has a hinged wooden door (I generally wrap an elastic band over to hold it closed - I've lost valuable queens before when the door opened at the wrong time).
Another approach would be to remove a frame from the outside and slide the frames over.

They look easy enough to make Paul?
I bet you don't even need to slide frames apart.?

 

[beeno]

I think you'd be better off introducing the virgins (in cages) into the nucs stocked with young bees and a queen excluder over the entrance Jeff. This is the way I do it (having had the queens emerge in an incubator and numbered first).
There would certainly be a risk of the colony swarming with the laying queen, particularly if the cells had been "finished" in that colony.

How long is the virgin caged for and how long is the QX on for pls?

 

[B+.]

How long is the virgin caged for and how long is the QX on for pls?

Overnight - but I play it by ear. If they show any aggression (Mike Palmer has a video of this on YouTube somewhere), I leave her in the cage longer.
The queen excluder over the entrance is to prevent other queens from entering. This is important to me because I don't want stray queens. It might not be important to other people. Once the queen is accepted, you could remove it and allow the virgin to mate naturally. However, if you haven't marked her, you won't know if she is from the line you want or if she's a returning queen from another colony. Again, this may not be important to some people but, if you're trying to raise a specific line, it may be important to you.

 

[B+.]

They look easy enough to make Paul?
I bet you don't even need to slide frames apart.?

It's hardly even worth making them at that price - but, I suppose you could make them if you wanted.
I like the fact that they have holes all round so the bees can sense the queens presence. Sometimes, they can be a bit rough with the queen. If this happens, you can wrap some paper/tape around part of it so the queen has somewhere to shelter while they get used to her. If it persists, the chances are you have another queen among the bees, so, check this before you release her.

If the comb has been built out, you may need to use the hive tool to give them a bit more space.

 

[Curly green finger's]

It's hardly even worth making them at that price - but, I suppose you could make them if you wanted.
I like the fact that they have holes all round so the bees can sense the queens presence. Sometimes, they can be a bit rough with the queen. If this happens, you can wrap some paper/tape around part of it so the queen has somewhere to shelter while they get used to her. If it persists, the chances are you have another queen among the bees, so, check this before you release her.

If the comb has been built out, you may need to use the hive tool to give them a bit more space.

Thanks Paul, I've got a ruck of plastic cages for this year, thanks for the advice.
When using the plastic cages the queen's are well protected but I like the idea of the workers being able to see the queen and I suppose there would be more queen substance about to with mated queen's.

 

[B+.]

Thanks Paul, I've got a ruck of plastic cages for this year, thanks for the advice.
When using the plastic cages the queen's are well protected but I like the idea of the workers being able to see the queen and I suppose there would be more queen substance about to with mated queen's.

Virgin queens are not sexually mature for the first 6 days so don't be afraid to keep them caged - so long as the bees feed her, she'll be fine. Another thing I've seen is that they can build wax around the cage (walling her up inside the cage). If you see any sign of this, it can be because they have another queen (even a virgin) that they are happy with - so you will need to dispose of her and start the introduction process again.
To be honest, it can help with the introduction by keeping the queen caged for a day or so - after all, if you were making up an Apidea, you'd keep them sealed for 3 days until they become a family unit, before taking the Apidea to the mating apiary. I have seen virgin queens run straight out the entrance unless prevented - their instinct to leave a hive they weren't born into can be very strong. That's another reason for the queen excluder/includer - but watch this - I have had queens get stuck and die between the bars as they try to wriggle through.

 

[mbc]

There would certainly be a risk of the colony swarming with the laying queen, particularly if the cells had been "finished" in that colony.

Unless the colony was making it's own decision to swarm this is very unlikely to happen, you can virtually never force a colony into throwing a swarm by adding cells at any stage of development.