Pursuit of AMM Black Bees

[Dodge]

Many seem to prefer a black bee and think it must be AMM or a local bee to their area.

Clicked on the Black Mountain queens advert on this site out of idle curiosity.

Love the pictures of the Carniolian and Caucasion queens. Wonder how many bee keepers have caught a swarm from these and admired the nice large local AMM black bee which most have come from a wild colony perfectly suited to the local area.

Makes you think.

*in the general forum die to the general appeal and not with regard to Queen Breeding / Rearing.

 

[Wilco]

Many seem to prefer a black bee and think it must be AMM or a local bee to their area.

Clicked on the Black Mountain queens advert on this site out of idle curiosity.

Love the pictures of the Carniolian and Caucasion queens. Wonder how many bee keepers have caught a swarm from these and admired the nice large local AMM black bee which most have come from a wild colony perfectly suited to the local area.

Makes you think.

*in the general forum die to the general appeal and not with regard to Queen Breeding / Rearing.

Also the fact that as soon as anyone starts selecting for certain traits- inclusing 'AMM' traits, they stop being 'locally adapted'. The'I keep local bees' thing is a delusional farce.

 

[Chris Hancock]

We picked up a tiny cluster of bees locally, and the queen is small and very black, so I did mark her. She is laying and brood looks healthy, but her nature is yet to show. Local bees are usually suited to our environment, so another strain will be good, as long as they are not unruly or spiteful!

 

[rolande]

Local bees are usually suited to our environment

Serious question, have you found non local bees to struggle in your particular environment, if so, is there a clear reason as to what causes their difficulties?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Serious question, have you found non local bees to struggle in your particular environment, if so, is there a clear reason as to what causes their difficulties?

I wonder how many queens bought from the major suppliers do struggle. I've had queens from Gloucester, South Wales, West Wales (but not locally), Scotland, Northumberland, and Germany and they have all done well far outperforming any swarms I've picked up

 

[pargyle]

I wonder how many queens bought from the major suppliers do struggle. I've had queens from Gloucester, South Wales, West Wales (but not locally), Scotland, Northumberland, and Germany and they have all done well far outperforming any swarms I've picked up

Mine (in recent years) have nearly all come from West Wales (Ceri Morgan) or are first generation derivatives - they are definitely, infinitely, better than any local stock - in just about every respect. I've been happy with queens from other reputable breeders in the past as well. I think good commercial queen breeders rear stock for the best characteristics and whilst you sometimes get lucky with swarms you collect - if they arrive with an unmarked queen - you are in for pot luck. I've had a couple of good ones over the years but I prefer the certainty of having gentle, easily worked and yet productive bees from a known source queen.

I recognise that even first generation, locally mated, derivatives could have detrimental characteristics but so far I've been lucky.

I have a local, semi-commercial, beekeeper who still retains the fallacy that the most productive bees are those that he describes as 'hot' - his increasing hive numbers in recent years have obviously degenerated the gene pool and I hear of more people who are facing issues with feisty bees in the area, I keep my bees in my garden and I really don't want colonies that are likely to make a nuisance of themselves .. there's a price to pay for buying in good queens but it's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Swarm]

From 5.50 to 8.10 He says it all

 

[Chris Hancock]

In answer to the question about my reasons for wanting local bees- I started out with an Italian queen, who seemed OK, but after the next generation, it is as if there is a slight mismatch of genes with local bees? They then seem to get too feisty and need requeening. I then had swarms from local cottages with them in the walls, and they have provided me with gentle bees for about 15 years, as have a locally sourced queen from another society member. It is only in the last couple of years that I met a really aggressive swarm (so unexpected, and so very determined to follow and sting), and this year had some new queens returning to produce some really vicious offspring. I imagine that certain mixes are not good. Is it true that Buckfast bees seem to get 'hot' after a couple of generations, as I have been told? I do have concerns because we can't select which drones are going to mate with the virgins, unless we use Artificial Insemination, which is why I hope beekeepers will monitor temperament and health. Of course, if vicious bees are at large and become local, that causes problems for local beekeepers and the public.

 

[jarmo henttu]

We picked up a tiny cluster of bees locally, and the queen is small and very black, so I did mark her. She is laying and brood looks healthy, but her nature is yet to show. Local bees are usually suited to our environment, so another strain will be good, as long as they are not unruly or spiteful!

In Finland we can buy Italian bees from Italy and Carniolan bees from.Slovenia, and they do well in Finland.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

In answer to the question about my reasons for wanting local bees- I started out with an Italian queen, who seemed OK, but after the next generation, it is as if there is a slight mismatch of genes with local bees? They then seem to get too feisty and need requeening. I then had swarms from local cottages with them in the walls, and they have provided me with gentle bees for about 15 years, as have a locally sourced queen from another society member. It is only in the last couple of years that I met a really aggressive swarm (so unexpected, and so very determined to follow and sting), and this year had some new queens returning to produce some really vicious offspring. I imagine that certain mixes are not good. Is it true that Buckfast bees seem to get 'hot' after a couple of generations, as I have been told? I do have concerns because we can't select which drones are going to mate with the virgins, unless we use Artificial Insemination, which is why I hope beekeepers will monitor temperament and health. Of course, if vicious bees are at large and become local, that causes problems for local beekeepers and the public.

Around me it's hard to find any open mated bees without some buckfast in the mixture. I've only had one swarm arrive which I established and sold on late next spring to a beekeeper who had lost his. I saw him a couple of months later and asked how they were doing. It was quite surprising when he said they were too feisty for him and he'd had to requeen. While with me I hadn't found them problematic, nor any other swarms I've collected so I lean towards the keepers handling techniques having more to do with such problems, (plus the spread of group think).

 

[rolande]

In answer to the question about my reasons for wanting local bees

No. That wasn't my question, I wouldn't question you wanting local bees, that's pretty much what I have myself* at the end of the day.

My question was about non local bees not doing well in your environment which I felt was the implication of your statement that local bees are suited to the local environment.

Edit:* in the sense that they're reared in-house from what's already here with little outside input and none for quite some time although I'm always open to the possibility.

 

[rolande]

From 5.50 to 8.10 He says it all

I'm not sure he says it *all* although he does say a lot. He's a man that openly admits he'll bring in queens if and when he needs to while continuing to breed his own as far as possible. Now, I'm not actually convinced that a travelled queen is ever quite as good as she might have been if left at home but of course it's pretty much impossible to prove this as she can't be in two places at the same timebut that's not to say we can't get very good travelled queens, just that a skilled intuitive breeder will probably have good chance of producing a quality in-house queen that ticks all of the required boxes.

 

[BugsInABox]

Mine (in recent years) have nearly all come from West Wales (Ceri Morgan) or are first generation derivatives - they are definitely, infinitely, better than any local stock - in just about every respect. I've been happy with queens from other reputable breeders in the past as well. I think good commercial queen breeders rear stock for the best characteristics and whilst you sometimes get lucky with swarms you collect - if they arrive with an unmarked queen - you are in for pot luck. I've had a couple of good ones over the years but I prefer the certainty of having gentle, easily worked and yet productive bees from a known source queen.

I recognise that even first generation, locally mated, derivatives could have detrimental characteristics but so far I've been lucky.

I have a local, semi-commercial, beekeeper who still retains the fallacy that the most productive bees are those that he describes as 'hot' - his increasing hive numbers in recent years have obviously degenerated the gene pool and I hear of more people who are facing issues with feisty bees in the area, I keep my bees in my garden and I really don't want colonies that are likely to make a nuisance of themselves .. there's a price to pay for buying in good queens but it's worth every penny as far as I'm concerned.

Although the hybrid vigour transmitted from the all bought in queens’ drones probably adds to feral bee aggression too doesn’t it?

 

[BugsInABox]

.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Although the hybrid vigour transmitted from the all bought in queens’ drones probably adds to feral bee aggression

is there any proof to back that opinion?
Or is it based on unconscious bias?

 

[Swarm]

I'd say it was based on law of probabilities.

 

[BugsInABox]

is there any proof to back that opinion?
Or is it based on unconscious bias?

I’m not sure why you’d accuse me of unconscious bias - if you recall I recently bought in a black mountain queen.
I’d also say that given that hybrid vigor from f1 stock is a well recognised biological principle the burden of proof probably lies with those that deny it.
How’s your unconscious bias JBM?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’d also say that given that hybrid vigor from f1 stock is a well recognised biological principle

It is but you said hybrid vigour contributes to aggression in wild bees
I suspect what you meant was when these hybrid vigorous bees contributed to the wild gene pool you might get aggression

 

[BugsInABox]

It is but you said hybrid vigour contributes to aggression in wild bees
I suspect what you meant was when these hybrid vigorous bees contributed to the wild gene pool you might get aggression

Perhaps - my point was that the buying in of queens may do as much to promote aggressive local bees as not culling aggressive colonies.

It perhaps better explains this than a suggestion the problems is inherent to local bees too.

…Italian queen, who seemed OK, but after the next generation, it is as if there is a slight mismatch of genes with local bees? They then seem to get too feisty and need requeening.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Perhaps - my point was that the buying in of queens may do as much to promote aggressive local bees as not culling aggressive colonies.

It perhaps better explains this than a suggestion the problems is inherent to local bees too.

It surely depends.
If it was as clear cut as that then second and third generation colonies from bought in queens might be expected to be hot. After all they are mating with the local stock. I have never found that.