Preemptive Demaree…does it have to be?

[JamezF]

what would the more successful AS methods be?

I agree with the comments above, but add that it will also depend on what you want to achieve (would you like another colony or do you want to maximise the harvest, or something else?), how much kit and space you have available and perhaps how comfortable you are making up your own bits of kit. Oh, and how good are you at finding the existing queen when you need to?

Assuming you're going to rely on a swarm cell to produce a new queen then swarm control may always be a bit of a gamble. You can create an AS using the Pagden method for instance, but then what do you do with the queen cells you're leaving? You could break down all but one, but then there's the risk that that queen may fail and you're left with a queenless colony. Leave more than one and there's the risk that you'll still get a swarm if the first queen to emerge doesn't nobble all of the others. Even if you leave just two queen cells then the possibility exists that they might emerge at close to the same time and potentially injure each other when fighting for dominance, though I can't claim to have definitively known that to happen myself.

At my home apiary I have plenty of space and I can bodge kit up if necessary so Pagden is a fairly straightforward solution. I have hives at a local farm where space is very restricted and there some form of split that uses the same hive footprint is more practical, though I know I lose swarms from those hives anyway because it's not always practical to inspect.

James

 

[Black Mountain Honey]

Just seen this thread. There are numerous people on here with WAY more experience than me!

My advice is to try new things and see what works for you.

I tend to use the demaree as a proactive measure and find it very effective (hence the video).

I included the reactive elements as its a valid, but certainly not fool proof method for swarm control.

If you wait for the colonies to show swarm preps, it becomes a logistical nightmare trying to manage the apiary.

If you do a planned demaree then all the colonies are aligned and the time management becomes a lot easier.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks Laurence for popping on.

If you wait for the colonies to show swarm preps, it becomes a logistical nightmare trying to manage the apiary.

Now that is the truth especially if you have more than a few colonies.

 

[Moody]

Thanks everyone for your valuable input.
I did the demarre after finding 2 charged QC's at very early stage). Went in on Day 4, and removed few play cups they had made. I inspected today, day 7 and in the top box, found several charged QC'S and one capped QC towards at the bottom.
I removed all of them - did I do correct.
No QC's in bottom box..
Thanks again, appreciate the advice (helps reduce the daunting feeling)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I removed all of them - did I do correct.

yes

 

[holmbee]

I now use a demaree as a proactive measure and have not needed any reactive action since. Thanks to JBM for such clear advice, easy to make up the boards as per his pictures. Have not used my Snelgrove boards since - they sit waiting for action in my shed.

 

[Do224]

I now use a demaree as a proactive measure and have not needed any reactive action since. Thanks to JBM for such clear advice, easy to make up the boards as per his pictures. Have not used my Snelgrove boards since - they sit waiting for action in my shed.

What are ‘the boards’? I just googled snelgrove boards but sounds like you use something a bit different…

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What are ‘the boards’? I just googled snelgrove boards but sounds like you use something a bit different…

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

 

[Do224]

Thanks. When you use the demaree board what’s the purpose of the second entrance and does it face the same direction as the main entrance?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what’s the purpose of the second entrance and does it face the same direction as the main entrance?

Yes, it faces the same way as the bottom entrance, the main purpose is to allow any drones emerging in the top box to fly out. It's also handy if you end up with a virgin queen in the top box - she can get out and mate giving you a two queen hive which you can either split ay the end of the season or, kill one of the queens and take down the Demarree without needing to unite, a sort of a manipulated supersedure

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes, it faces the same way as the bottom entrance, the main purpose is to allow any drones emerging in the top box to fly out. It's also handy if you end up with a virgin queen in the top box - she can get out and mate giving you a two queen hive which you can either split ay the end of the season or, kill one of the queens and take down the Demarree without needing to unite, a sort of a manipulated supersedure

Do you think this works better than a simple QX and what about ventilation through the hive?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you think this works better than a simple QX

I don't think it makes any difference - if emerging drones get trapped above the QX, as long as you crack the crown board every week they'll get out (just be prepared for the mad roar when you first open as they all hurry out for a dump!

what about ventilation through the hive?

It's only a small aperture for the QX section and the top entrance is only an inch anyway, I think the bees manage it as I've only noticed ventilating bees at the bottom entrance during a flow, and as it's only there for a month or so in the summer it has little impact.

All in all the Demarree board is a handy tool, especially if you want almost guaranteed QCs for nuc making, but for me, the cost of one stamped galvanised QX which is enough to make dozens of boards plus some ply and recycled timber for the rims it was a no brainer compared to hundreds of pounds worth of extra queen excluders, but in the end, as long as you are careful with taking down QCs in the top box and the odd drone wandering around in the honey supers (only a problem if you're naïve enough to still use Porter escapes) you don't really need a top QX or a Demarree board

 

[Do224]

So with a preemptive demaree performed in April or May, would that normally be enough to control the swarming impulse in that colony for the season…or is it common to have to perform a second demaree later on? I imagine this could lead to a pretty tall hive

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So with a preemptive demaree performed in April or May, would that normally be enough to control the swarming impulse in that colony for the season…or is it common to have to perform a second demaree later on? I imagine this could lead to a pretty tall hive

You don't have to keep all the supers on until the end of the season, you can take some off and extract them earlier.
You can run Demarree a number of ways - some people just Demarree and then, a few weeks later when they 'think' swarming fever is over, take the whole thing down (not a very wise move really), just do it once and leave the bees backfill the brood frames as brood emerges, or you can 'roll' it, at each inspection; taking capped brood out of the bottom box and replacing it with emerged frames from the top box, even if they have started filling the top frames with honey, they will just move it back up out of the way.
I Usually start my Demarrees mid April, roll them for a while then leave them backfill, by mid July, the flow is more or less over and they just settle down.

 

[Do224]

You don't have to keep all the supers on until the end of the season, you can take some off and extract them earlier.
You can run Demarree a number of ways - some people just Demarree and then, a few weeks later when they 'think' swarming fever is over, take the whole thing down (not a very wise move really), just do it once and leave the bees backfill the brood frames as brood emerges, or you can 'roll' it, at each inspection; taking capped brood out of the bottom box and replacing it with emerged frames from the top box, even if they have started filling the top frames with honey, they will just move it back up out of the way.
I Usually start my Demarrees mid April, roll them for a while then leave them backfill, by mid July, the flow is more or less over and they just settle down.

Exactly the explanation I was hoping for, thanks

 

[Bazzer]

Valuable feedback. To help in my journey, in your opinion, what would the more successful AS methods be?

If you want something close to a Demaree but post-swarm cell prep you can put the queenless top box with as near as possible all the BIAS above a split board with a rear entrance The foragers will exit out the back entrance and reenter the lower box. You can remove the first batch of QC and let the top box make more and get close to a VQ emerging. That has moved you 12 or 13 days down the line. You can then choose whether you want a new queen or else remove all the remaining queen cells and recombine top with bottom.

 

[Swarm]

I did a vertical split like that many years ago when I had hives in the garden. They swarmed.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I f my double brood colonies produce queencells, I then do a reactive demaree. This might mean that the queen in in the third brood box at the bottom of the stack, with whatever combs without brood I can scavenge from the two brood boxes, adding foundation if needed. I might put a queen excluder under the bottom brood box for a few days, however with no brood in the lower brood box, the swarming impulse tends to die away after a few days. I use an excluder and top entrance above the supers to let the flyers and drones out which are happy enough under the lower queen excluder for a few days.
I then remove the lower excluder and place sealed brood down with the queen and reduce to one brood box at the top of the stack. I might use the top brood box to raise queen(s) in or might not. A good queen will stay all season. A poor or older queen will have a young-un develop above her head for replacement later in the season so the top brood box will stay at the top for the replacement queen.
If I am not replacing the original queen, after a couple of weeks or so, the top brood box is placed under the laying queen brood box, so right at the bottom of the stack so any of the honey that's been stored there will be moved up above the queen and brood into the supers. I could extract it also which you can't do in 14 x 12 frames. Any excess brood combs - usually no more than 2 or 3 are usually used to make up nucs.

 

[Finman]

I let the hives grow long as I see queen cells. Then I make badgen AS on foundations

If AS stuffs are ready, AS is very easy to do.