Placing Super under Brood - what's the downside?

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Beeline

House Bee
Joined
May 1, 2011
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408
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Location
Surrey
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
6
I know this has been discussed on many occasions, with those for and against but I would like some clarity.

With my national hives being on brood and half, the 'half' comprising mainly honey and some brood, and taking advice from the forum, I placed them under the brood a few weeks back. Nothing appeared to happen with that arrangement until the first cold spell 2-3 weeks ago. Suddenly alot of shredded wax on the ground under the OMF which suggested they were shifting it up into the brood as presumably her laying had reduced. I say presume because I have left them to it.

I would have thought under-supering would be a better system for most beeks as it allows the queen to carry on laying in the brood until she wants to stop or reduce rather than being forced out of laying space through beeks trying to cram 20kilos of sugar (2:1) into a single brood box for winter. The impact of feeding 20 kilos of sugar with a super on above is that they tend to fill the super first and only then move down to the brood space below, giving the queen approx 4-5 frames to lay should she so wish. Now that I've placed the super below and they have moved alot of it up into the brood box suggests the stores are being shifted according to their requirements and not what I may have thought was best.

I also don't understand the argument that giving them an additional super below means they will have more volume to keep warm. Yes, that may be correct for those on solid floors but surely No, when you using OMF as the sixth side of the box is missing/ open to the elements. So whether you decide to double brood or brood and a half over winter, the exposure to the cold within the hive is exactly the same - it's the open floor - 460 x 460mm (national). If anything surely a deeper volume would mean the warm air surrounding the nest which is normally at the top, is less susceptible to the cold elements exaggerated by wind turbulence.

Please be gentle as I'm still feeling tender after an early exit at the WC ;). Personally I can't see a downside to under-supering over the winter.

BL
 
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Mine are on the bottom i.e under the BB.
When feeding supers were on the top Thymolated of course!

Any thing left in the spring ( and there rarely is) will eventually get used up as the queen always seem to lay in both boxes, troublesome if on double BBs!!!
 
The downside is as you have mentioned, the possibility of bees moving stores around once under-supered as would usually have stores above the brood nest.

However I am an advocate of the practice and all my colonies have got through winters whilst doing this with open mesh floors and no matchsticks under the crown boards.

Supers are invariably empty at first inspection. Unless you leave them too long and you then get brood in them.

A Double brood is possibly the best system. No messing about by us humans. Plenty of stores and they have the nest as they want. If the queen is laying in both boxes in the Spring they can be re-arranged into one box or if it's the stronger colonies you have that are in two brood boxes, just leave them to it as they will probably want two brood chambers in any case. A super can go on when required.

Of course all those on Commercials or 14 x 12's will say that one box is enough.

I have two colonies on - wait for it - - - - double 8 frame Nationals. Will be interesting to see what they get up to in the winter. (These were originally 16 frame Nats that didn't really work and were carved up into smaller boxes). An 8 frame box will be nice and snug to get going in the Spring.
 
The downside is as you have mentioned, the possibility of bees moving stores around once under-supered as would usually have stores above the brood nest.

I thought this was one of the up-sides- the super gets emptied first and they have a full BB above them to work up into.
 
Personally I no longer use a super under the bb .
Reason being ,should the weather delay the first Spring inspection ,the super can be filled with wild comb and brood. Yes it has happened to me !
I use 14x12s , my bees are well furnished with stores and build up without probs in the Springtime !:)
VM
 
Victor - I can understand the problem of her laying early in the super but surely that could be resolved swiftly by switching boxes around and inserting an QE - or does it compromise the comb?

Where would there be space for wild comb in a super of 10 frames? An honest question as I haven't seen this before in my 1st year - maybe a bit of brace only.

BL
 
Victor - I can understand the problem of her laying early in the super but surely that could be resolved swiftly by switching boxes around and inserting an QE - or does it compromise the comb?

Where would there be space for wild comb in a super of 10 frames? An honest question as I haven't seen this before in my 1st year - maybe a bit of brace only.

BL
The super (as suggested by my branch) is devoid of frames and is intended as a baffle to wind turbulence as well as room for a colony to cluster below bottom of frames in BB as It has been noticed that in a national BB situation ,the cluster is often in contact with the OMF !.
VM
 
The super (as suggested by my branch) is devoid of frames and is intended as a baffle to wind turbulence as well as room for a colony to cluster below bottom of frames in BB as It has been noticed that in a national BB situation ,the cluster is often in contact with the OMF !.
VM

Are we talking cross purposes here VM? I think the original point was referring to leaving a super specifically with stores under, whereas you are talking about a wind break without frames?

I did a similar thing last year but left the super under the OMF so they didn't build any comb, now on 14x12s so like you wont be bothering this year.
 
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If the colony is big, it is same what is the order of boxes. However brood should be lowest because cluster starts wintering there where brood was last. In spring cluster will be upstairs and it is better that food is too in upstairs.

You may use brood and half, tree half or what ever.
 
I did a similar thing last year but left the super under the OMF so they didn't build any comb, now on 14x12s so like you wont be bothering this year.
Probably :) threads do meander slightly !
Bees like to build vertically . give them room above and below a brood box and odds on they will extend brood area above and below and fail to expand side ways until lack of room forces this!
VM
 
I thought this was one of the up-sides- the super gets emptied first and they have a full BB above them to work up into.

I think it depends on when they move the stores. If the bees have stored their honey in the upstairs larder and we move it to the basement, they may waste energy moving it up again.
 

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