Oxalic acid treatment

[Hivetool2021]

Hope you all had a good Christmas, I'm planning to treat my bees some time this week.

I bought oxyalic acid from thornes a while ago, attached photo, just checking what I got is correct and how much in grams do I mix with say 500ml of 1:1 fees, as I can't find it anywhere.
Any advice would be great, thank you

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We are not allowed to roll our own OA mixes any more but must pay through the nose for proprietary mixxes with added fairy dust like Api bioxoial
You are no longer allowed to
Dissolve 1kg sugar in 1 litre of water. which produces 1.67L of 1:1 (100%)syrup. then Add 75grm of Oxalic Acid. which gives a 3.2% Oxalic Acid (weight/volume) solution which is more commonly expressed as 4.5%, or even divide the formula down to smaller quantities if you have few hives

 

[Newbeeneil]

We are not allowed to roll our own OA mixes any more but must pay through the nose for proprietary mixxes with added fairy dust like Api bioxoial
You are no longer allowed to
Dissolve 1kg sugar in 1 litre of water. which produces 1.67 of 1:1 (100%)syrup. then Add 75grm of Oxalic Acid. which gives a 3.2% Oxalic Acid (weight/volume) solution which is more commonly expressed as 4.5% 9r even divide the formula down to smaller quantities if you have few hives

I'm glad you explained so well exactly what we are "NOT ALLOWED" to do. Very community minded of you.

 

[Finman]

How many hives you have?

To 3-5 hives you mix 100 g sugar + 100 water + 7.5 g oxalic acid.

If you have 30 hives, then mix 1 kg sugar + 1 kg water + 75 g oxalic acid.

 

[Finman]

I'm glad you explained so well exactly what we are "NOT ALLOWED" to do. Very community minded of you.

Classical "joke" during last 20 years on British Isles. And it makes us to laugh every time.

 

[Finman]

We are not allowed to roll our own OA mixes any more but must pay through the nose for proprietary mixxes with added fairy dust like Api bioxoial
You are no longer allowed to
Dissolve 1kg sugar in 1 litre of water. which produces 1.67L of 1:1 (100%)syrup. then Add 75grm of Oxalic Acid. which gives a 3.2% Oxalic Acid (weight/volume) solution which is more commonly expressed as 4.5%, or even divide the formula down to smaller quantities if you have few hives

Mixture gives 3.5% acid solution. Normal chemistry calculates weight/ weight percents.

I do not know, how it is possible to calculate weight/volume percents.

I have never seen that 4.5% formula in official papers made by EU varroa group.

Italy uses 4% oxalic syrup, Switzerland and Canada 2.8% , most countries 3.5%. Ireland selected a wrong document and selected a wrong percent.


Wrong calculated percents continue their living in this forum. They had already calculated 20 years ago in the varroa group, but this forum has a duty to calculate it every year again and again.

 

[pargyle]

Classical "joke" during last 20 years on British Isles. And it makes us to laugh every time.

Trouble is Finnie is that it's not a joke ... it's a ridiculous situation created by regulations set by our Veterinary Medicines Directorate that, clearly, have little grasp of the reality that the lack of licensing required for generic Oxalic Acid, for use in the treatment of varroa in the UK, has on both the cost and effectiveness of treatment.

They had the opportunity, when we were still part of the EU, to transfer the regulations, permitting the use of generic OA, evident in the rest of Europe, to the UK and they declined. For reasons I still cannot fathom except that the licensing of veterinary products in the UK appears to be process that is dependent, to some extent, on the size of your wallet rather than the effectiveness of the treatment. It's a travesty.

 

[Finman]

Trouble is Finnie is that it's not a joke ... i

They had the opportunity, when we were still part of the EU,

In Finland we have same regulations. But no one here wants to fight against our own advantage.
But in Britain you prefer to buy Italian or German allowed water with huge price than use generic oxalic acid. And no one in Britain has been in jale for oxalic acid during last 20 years, and not before when you sprayed 3% water solution on bee combs.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In Finland we have same regulations……..
But in Britain you prefer to buy Italian or German allowed water with huge price than use generic oxalic acid.

Not everyone Finnie. Not by any means. But it is always useful to let new beekeepers what it is that they are not supposed to do in detail

 

[pargyle]

In Finland we have same regulations. But no one here wants to fight against our own advantage.
But in Britain you prefer to buy Italian or German allowed water with huge price than use generic oxalic acid. And no one in Britain has been in jale for oxalic acid during last 20 years, and not before when you sprayed 3% water solution on bee combs.

We are, on the whole, a law abiding nation and the vast majority of beekeepers will obey the regulations at some great expense. At least one Beefarmer has ended up on the receiving end of not obeying the regulations although you are right - nobody has gone to jail. But, encouraging people to use unlicensed treatments is, in itself, an offence although, again, nobody has even been prosecuted.

 

[Finman]

But what ever, the ame joking has been continued 20 years.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And still we hear the same donkey braying.

 

[Murox]

But what ever, the ame joking has been continued 20 years.

Europe has been having a laugh at our expense for many years, but we have only just noticed!

 

[Mint Bee]

Trouble is Finnie is that it's not a joke ... it's a ridiculous situation created by regulations set by our Veterinary Medicines Directorate that, clearly, have little grasp of the reality that the lack of licensing required for generic Oxalic Acid, for use in the treatment of varroa in the UK, has on both the cost and effectiveness of treatment.

They had the opportunity, when we were still part of the EU, to transfer the regulations, permitting the use of generic OA, evident in the rest of Europe, to the UK and they declined. For reasons I still cannot fathom except that the licensing of veterinary products in the UK appears to be process that is dependent, to some extent, on the size of your wallet rather than the effectiveness of the treatment. It's a travesty.

Frankly its a PITA as the options are to either buy expensive licensed product, or break the law and use unlicensed plain old OA. But if you are going to blame someone you are looking at the wrong people again. VMD does what it is instructed to do by the legal framework that the government puts in place. The person to complain to is George Eustice, Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs of the United Kingdom. VMD will only look at applications presented to them. Products licensed in EU can be recognised in the UK as mutually recognised products, but its not in the remit of the VMD to submit an application for this. As far as I'm aware, no company or individual has put forward an application for plain OA as a medicinal treatment for varroa to VMD for them to assess.

Rather than being any sort of conspiracy theory, it is more likely based on economics and a return on investment. In addition, once a generic license was approved for OA, there would be nothing to stop other companies using this as a piggy back to get their own generic OA licence, therefore diluting the market share potential further. There is no intellectual property with plain OA to protect this.
Base fee for a license application is ~ £16k. For generic OA, I would image that a license dossier would probably set you back no more than £150k for consultants to put together, unless you can get someone on the forum to do this FOC. Whilst manufacturing costs would be negligible, you would need a qualified person to release product, distribution and pharmacovigilance set up to meet meet licensing requirements. might be able to do this for £50k a year. I don't know what the market capacity is for all OA treatments in the UK is, licensed or unlicensed, but to cover annual costs that a lot of OA to sell.
Unless someone is prepare to take this on as an altruistic activity, I really cant see the business sense and ultimately this drives companies to develop medicinal products. As a businessman Phil, would you have invested in a programme the had little chance of any profit?
I'm happy to talk through the regulatory requirements for product licensing from my experiences with human medicinal license applications if it helps clarify what is needed, but I cant change the legal framework that exists, whether it makes sense or not

 

[pargyle]

Frankly its a PITA as the options are to either buy expensive licensed product, or break the law and use unlicensed plain old OA. But if you are going to blame someone you are looking at the wrong people again. VMD does what it is instructed to do by the legal framework that the government puts in place. The person to complain to is George Eustice, Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs of the United Kingdom. VMD will only look at applications presented to them. Products licensed in EU can be recognised in the UK as mutually recognised products, but its not in the remit of the VMD to submit an application for this. As far as I'm aware, no company or individual has put forward an application for plain OA as a medicinal treatment for varroa to VMD for them to assess.

Rather than being any sort of conspiracy theory, it is more likely based on economics and a return on investment. In addition, once a generic license was approved for OA, there would be nothing to stop other companies using this as a piggy back to get their own generic OA licence, therefore diluting the market share potential further. There is no intellectual property with plain OA to protect this.
Base fee for a license application is ~ £16k. For generic OA, I would image that a license dossier would probably set you back no more than £150k for consultants to put together, unless you can get someone on the forum to do this FOC. Whilst manufacturing costs would be negligible, you would need a qualified person to release product, distribution and pharmacovigilance set up to meet meet licensing requirements. might be able to do this for £50k a year. I don't know what the market capacity is for all OA treatments in the UK is, licensed or unlicensed, but to cover annual costs that a lot of OA to sell.
Unless someone is prepare to take this on as an altruistic activity, I really cant see the business sense and ultimately this drives companies to develop medicinal products. As a businessman Phil, would you have invested in a programme the had little chance of any profit?
I'm happy to talk through the regulatory requirements for product licensing from my experiences with human medicinal license applications if it helps clarify what is needed, but I cant change the legal framework that exists, whether it makes sense or not

That is, in part, true - the current situation does require someone to apply for a licence and yes, it does cost an excessive amount of money which would not be commercially recoverable as anyone could then buy generic OA and cut out whoever paid the licence fee ... BUT .. you are missing the point - OA was accepted as a legal treatment for Varroa in the EU and the VMD had the opportunity to action its use in the UK under the Transfer of Marketing Directive but they chose not to ... they had the authority but declined to use it. Whether there was political interference in this decision I don't know ... I can't see why the Government at the time (the little lamented Minister of Agriculture - Owen Patteson) would get involved but I can see that the VMD - who have a revenue stream from product licencing - would have a motive.

Either way - it's a crass situation that, should generic OA be approved, could have a huge impact on the reduction and possible eradication of varroa in the UK. The Sussex University study in 2014 demonstrated how effective generic OA by sublimation is when used correctly and yet we are obliged to use a less than satisfactory but incredibly more expensive product that is licensed or break the law. I don't treat my bees but I can see the injustice and stupidity of this situation whihc - if I was rich enough - I would resolve by applying for the required licence.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

they had the authority but declined to use it. Whether there was political interference in this decision I don't know ..

Are Winnie the poo's defecatory arrangements not arboreal?
We all know that for the last few decades, any decision made at governmental level are almost always made with the benefit of ministers or their mates in mind.

 

[pargyle]

Are Winnie the poo's defecatory arrangements not arboreal?
We all know that for the last few decades, any decision made at governmental level are almost always made with the benefit of ministers or their mates in mind.

I'm not going to disagree with that ... I'm not sure there has been any post WW2 government that has not been guilty, to some extent, of fiddling with decisions to meet their own ends ... I think it was Ken Clarke who said that the TV Series 'Yes Minister' was nearer fact than fiction but ...

I still can't see a political motive for preventing the transfer when the opportunity was there ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I still can't see a political motive for preventing the transfer when the opportunity was there ...

Nothing to do with politics (although as there hasn't been a socialist government in power since the 1970's it's all about a scrabble to get into a money making position) apart from the fact that nowadays being in government is all to do with lining one's own pockets or paving the way for post 'retirement' directorships and holidays in the seychelles.

 

[pargyle]

Nothing to do with politics (although as there hasn't been a socialist government in power since the 1970's it's all about a scrabble to get into a money making position) apart from the fact that nowadays being in government is all to do with lining one's own pockets or paving the way for post 'retirement' directorships and holidays in the seychelles.

I'm not here to argue politics but the last UK socialist governments of the 1960's and 70's left the country in a pretty sorry state so I doubt they were much better than anything that came after ! And yes.... I was there and old enough to remember ...

 

[Hivetool2021]

Thanks for the replies, I'm totally confused and think I will order apibioxal , guess what I bought isn't approved