Oxalic acid and super

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curry756

House Bee
Joined
Jun 19, 2011
Messages
147
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Location
Bexleyheath
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
6
Evening all

Collected a reasonably large swarm on thursday evening. I have just moved them into a a new 14x12 bb with new frames and foundation. Due to the size of the swarm I need to super them as I am away for 2 weeks as oF tomorrow. Can I treat them with oxalic acid when I have a super of new foundation on top?

Cheers
Paul
 
I wouldn't be treating with oa. If you are worried then MAQS them, after first checking for varroa drop.
E
 
Evening all
Due to the size of the swarm I need to super them as I am away for 2 weeks as oF tomorrow. Can I treat them with oxalic acid when I have a super of new foundation on top?


It makes little difference, but you could treat them before adding the super.
What method of oxalic treatment were you intending to use?
 
Last edited:
Thanks for swift replies

I wouldn't be treating with oa. If you are worried then MAQS them, after first checking for varroa drop.
E

Why wouldn't you treat with oa? I only have oa here and am flying tomorrow, so it's oa now or nothing for a few weeks till I get back?

It makes little difference, but you could treat them before adding the super.
What method of oxalic treatment were you intending to use?

Tomorrow my plan is to:
A) remove qx from under bb
B) hopefully treat with oa. Dripping 5ml (3% solution) down each seam
C) add qx and super

I was going to complete it all at the same time.

I was assuming that as the bees had to draw the bb frames first they wouldn't be going anywhere near the super for a good week or so anyway? But in all honesty I have no idea ;)
 
Would you expect a high mite level from a swarm ? All the swarms I'v collected have a very low level
 
Heavier infestations can be controlled by using
Queen Trapping, Artificial Swarm methods, Shook
Swarm, or in extreme cases Varroa medicines.
 
I know what treatment methods are available. I just have some oa solution open (still in date and only been open 5 months) that will be going in the bin soon. So it's either use it up or it goes in the bin soon.

I usually treat all swarms I collectwith the oxalic acid solution as I have already spent the money on it for my colonies. So it's a free bonus to use it on swarms just to clear any varroa they may have. It can't do any harm and will kill any varroa they may be carrying.

Maybe I should reword my first question. Is it safe to use oa 3% solution given the conditions mentioned in my first post?

Thanks in advance
 
Several points occur to me
Why use it when you don't know if you have a problem?
It can do harm - you should know the potential problems
I have only seen it referred to as an autumn or winter treatment
I don't believe you should "bin" it. Read up on how to safely dispose of it.
 
Several points occur to me
Why use it when you don't know if you have a problem?
It can do harm - you should know the potential problems
I have only seen it referred to as an autumn or winter treatment
I don't believe you should "bin" it. Read up on how to safely dispose of it.

Thanks for your concerns

1) my mentor who is a master bee keeper says to treat any swarm as prevention is better than cure. Allowing the mites into the brood will give them a good foothold and make them harder to treat once they have settled in. I have also read on here people advising to treat swarm with oa too.
Normally I would count the mites and then decide whether to treat, but as I am holiday there will prob be sealed brood when I return.

2) I do understand the risks. from here
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/

Does It Harm The Bees?

Ellis and Aliano found that OA is about 70 times as toxic to mites as it is to adult bees—which is a much greater spread than with either thymol or formic acid. The bees normally do not react defensively to being dribbled with syrup, but on rare occasions run out the entrance for a while. Occasionally one will notice a little adult bee kill after oxalic treatment. Adult bee kill does not seem to be an issue. However, there are questions about subtle effects, larval kill, and lasting suppression of brood development.

As far as winter broodless dribbling, it is absolutely critical to treat them only once, with exactly the right amount and concentration of OA. More than one winter treatment clearly hurts the bees. Charriere and Imdorf (2002) found that colonies treated with 5-6 ml/seam of 3% OA were only 85% the strength of controls by April 25. The best review is in Anonymous (1999). Typically, winter bees treated with OA start out a little slower, but catch up by the end of March.

3) your wrong. Again from same link

Spring/summer treatments

With summer dribbling, it is easy to overlook any effect of OA on brood rearing, especially if applied to late summer colonies that are not on a honeyflow, and were stressed by mites. Local anecdotal reports didn’t notice any frank effect, but they weren’t really measuring. One study of late gives us pause. Hatjina and Haristos (2005) is the only study I’ve found that reports significant problems to brood development following OA dribble. The authors recommend against summer treatment. The study was performed in Greece, “during the summer, between honey flows.” A question that is begging to be answered is: whether OA efficacy or brood mortality is affected by the amount of nectar flow during treatment.

Brødsgaard, et al. (1998) Treated colonies once in late March, and measured brood areas. “Neither the residues of oxalic acid in honey, the GST activity, nor the colony development after spring treatment with either trickling or spraying with oxalic acid seem to indicate any problems.”

Heinz Kaemmerer of Heilyser Technology says:

“You can treat your colonies with a liquid mixture of OA and sugar but be careful. The liquid acid shortens the life of the bees. There is no problem during summer because the bee’s life not longer than approximately 6 weeks. The problem starts with winter bees–do not treat your winter bees more than one time with liquid OA. When using liquid OA bees get wet and have to clean each other. The result is, the acid ends up in their stomach and during winter without a cleaning flight it shortens the life of the bees. Two treatments on winter bees might kill the colony. Liquid OA is a slow killer and bees will probably die after a few weeks or month instead reaching the next season.”

Do not be in the “If a little’s good, a lot would be better” mentality with oxalic. It can be rough if over applied to the winter cluster, and is rough on the brood in the summer colony. However, be aware that most other treatments also affect the brood (amitraz, formic, thymol), queens (coumaphos), or drones (fluvalinate).

4) "Bin it" was an expression. Sorry if it came across as literal. It will be safely disposed of.

I still need an answer if possible to my question as I am flying soon.

Cheers
PC.
 
.
To treat swarms with oxalic acid is really good job. They surely have mites and it is now best chance to treat them.



If you look from internet, what guys have said about varroa or oxalic acid, you surely find there what you want to find.

Oxalic does not give extra aroma to the combs like other methods do: thymol and formic acid.
 
I always treat swarms with oxalic acid and count the drop. I find a typical stray swarm (ie not mine) has between 80 and 120 Varroa mites (based on a sample of 18 swarms)
 
personally I would water down (enough to put thru sprayer) and spray bees on or off coomb, still use the amount your think you need then dilute, if ready mixed with sugar water I would not keep beyond expiry date.
 
If you look from internet, what guys have said about varroa or oxalic acid, you surely find there what you want to find.
with no definatve answer..
 
I always treat swarms with oxalic acid and count the drop. I find a typical stray swarm (ie not mine) has between 80 and 120 Varroa mites (based on a sample of 18 swarms)

So your minimum has been 80.
Varroa douples itself in one month and lets count what the hive has in September

May ...80
June...160
July.....320
August ..650
September 1300 and the critical limit is achieved


With 120 mites

May ...120
June...250
July.....500
August ..1000....critical limit
September 2000

Clear damages to winter cluster

.
 
So your minimum has been 80.
Varroa douples itself in one month and lets count what the hive has in September

May ...80
June...160
July.....320
August ..650
September 1300 and the critical limit is achieved


With 120 mites

May ...120
June...250
July.....500
August ..1000....critical limit
September 2000

Clear damages to winter cluster

.

Crap.
 
Your question was what to do about the supers when treating with OA.
You have quoted R Oliver.
He says:

*Note that no chemical or drug should be applied to honeybee colonies during the summer season when honey supers are on, unless the supers have been removed for the season.

This is good advice.
The question is if you take supers off I would either clear them of bees first or shake them out infront of the hive. You will then have all bees ready to be treated with the OA in your brood box.
What is not clear is when is it safe to put supers back on after treating the brood box with OA.
Some bees will ingest the OA/sugar mixture and this may be mixed with incoming nectar from the foragers and then stored.
When I posted a similar thread I ended up removing supers for 3 days as a precaution.
Alec
 

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