One of our hives appears queenless, but also doesn’t

[barratt_sab]

Sorry, long post ahead…

The queen was 2010, marked but not clipped. The colony is on 14x12 in a WBC. There were a nuc acquired late last year, and never really got going very well (even at their best, they had only really drawn about 6 or 7 14x12 frames last year). We fed them and they had 5 14x12 frames of capped stores going into the winter. They had Apiguard in late August / early September 2010. We trickled oxalic around the turn of the year and gave them a lump of fondant at the same time (which they used only part of).

Our recent inspection notes are as follows:

20/4/11
Queen re-marked
Removed 2 empty playcups
2 frames brood
5 frames stores
Temper: Good
Added super & bruised some stores in the BB
Saw unusual brood cappings - v. thin white membrane over about 8 cells on 2 frames

2/5/11
Queen not seen
Eggs and larvae present
Removed 4 empty playcups
1 frame brood
5 frames stores
Temper: Feisty
Removed drone brood from base of BS brood frame

7/5/11
Queen not seen
Eggs and larvae present
1 frame brood
5 frames stores
4 frames drawn in super (no honey yet)
Temper: Good

12/5/11
Queen not seen
1 empty playcup removed
1 side brood (larvae only)
6 frames stores in brood box
5 frames honey in super
Temper: Good initially

15/5/11
V. quick look - no queen seen
Removed 1 frame stores from brood box
Installed test frame of brood with eggs from known Q+ hive
Added extra super (previous super almost full)

17/5/11
Quick check - no queen cells/playcups on the test frame

19/5/11
Quick check - no queen cells/playcups on the test frame
Space available for laying on the test frame but no eggs

Other hives in the same location have come on quickly this year (7-8 good frames of brood, second super being filled). One of these hives is a WBC that houses another colony of similar stock acquired from the same source slightly earlier last year. This other colony built up better last year. It has had the same varroa treatment & feeding and has come on well this year (7 good frames of brood, second super being filled). They produced some queen cells and we AS’d them on 2nd May.


So, once again, I am confused:

We don’t appear to have the old queen – we cannot find her, and we can’t see any eggs at all.

We don’t appear to have a new queen - we haven’t found her or seen any queen cells (I accept this part is far from foolproof).

We don’t appear to be Q- - at least they don’t seem to want to do anything with our test frame.


My instinct is that the lack of laying space in the BB caused a swarm (which we missed). We then also missed the queen cell(s) and we now have a virgin queen that isn’t laying yet. I think that if our observations were correct, they must have swarmed on or after about 5th May.

I guess we just have to wait and see, but I would welcome thoughts and suggestions as to where to go from here.

 

[Midland Beek]

There really is 'nowhere else to go' other than hope that the queen mates and comes into lay; at least you know that there is a queen in there. And if she doesn't mate she will also start to lay eggs ... drone laying queen. Wait until you get brood and decide from there.

 

[mojomoo]

HI, I am in a similar situation, (see my thread :http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=10746) although I can see my new/potentially virgin queen.

The general consensus is to hold tight and wait to see some eggs, I am now on my 4th week of having a new queen but with no eggs, so be patient this could take a while!

 

[oliver90owner]

A bit late here. Lost earlier post (around 16:15), so here goes again.

Observations:

Unusual brood cappings - you've never seen waxmoth? Likely you have now!

Playcups - irrelevant.

I frame of brood (reduced from two) - abysmal, the queen is probably failing.

Queen stopped laying around 5 -8th May or thereabouts.

Appears to be Q+.

No swarm cells (you would have noticed as you have noted playcups).

Conclusion: 1) Queen superceded; 2) Queen stopped laying; 3) Swarmed
Probability reducing from 1) to 3).

Outlook: Nothing much you can do other than add another test frame and wait a month before seriously considering requeening, unless you find otherwise in the meantime, or decide to introduce a new laying queen earlier (you will need to find the elusive queen).

Regards, RAB

 

[barratt_sab]

Thankyou everyone for your replies - I really appreciate your thoughts.

It's a lesson in patience again - I wish I was a quicker learner of that one

 

[barratt_sab]

An update

Unusual brood cappings - you've never seen waxmoth? Likely you have now!

Yes indeed, we have now! Found two larvae and squashed them.

Appears to be Q+.

Queen superceded

Well, we saw a very few eggs last week and spent the week with bated breath. Today, we saw larvae and eggs... and then we found the new queen.

That's two new queens spotted in two days

So I think we'll wait and see how she gets on and go from there.

Once again, thank you all so much for your advice - it must be boring answering the same questions year after year, but we certainly appreciate it.

 

[Midland Beek]

A case of checking the cappings to see if you have a 'good' queen or a drone laying queen. Marking the queen would have been a good idea as Sod's Law states: If she turns out to be a drone layer that needs to be found and killed ... you won't be able to find her.

 

[barratt_sab]

A case of checking the cappings to see if you have a 'good' queen or a drone laying queen. Marking the queen would have been a good idea as Sod's Law states: If she turns out to be a drone layer that needs to be found and killed ... you won't be able to find her.

Thanks for those tips - we marked her yesterday as soon as we found her because we were so relieved to see a queen in the brood box. We'll keep an eye on the cappings as you suggest.

 

[Poly Hive]

The main lesson here is that if you put in a test frame and get no cells you HAVE A QUEEN OS SOME DESCRIPTION. Most likely a virgin.

The only cure for a virgin is patience.

And please, learn to ignore play cups. Hmm? They are built for a reason and it takes the bees work to make and if you knock them down they will just build them again, so a waste of time for you and for them.

PH