OK to use double wall construction for modified national?

[ksjs]

I'm going to make a hive and supers using ply. Been having a look through posts on here and found this:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7813&highlight=plywood&page=4

Scroll to the bottom of the page to Muswell's post with diagram. This looks very easy in terms of construction i.e. no rebates. Dimensions here are for a pre-modified national.

Possibly a stupid question but are there any reasons why I can't adapt this to modified dimensions i.e. use same technique of 3 layers for frame carrying walls?

 

[MuswellMetro]

I'm going to make a hive.........

Possibly a stupid question but are there any reasons why I can't adapt this to modified dimensions i.e. use same technique of 3 layers for frame carrying walls?

Only the weight of the brood box in ply

iI attach below another version that is lighter from an old beecraft magazine ( note the dimensions are for a cottager hive not a national)

but it show a version of a double wall that is lighter as the middle wall part is void except for the closing strip

Note: one of theses cottager hives was in my possession until last year when it was stolen ,having been buit by my grandfather in the 1950's from cedar, it lasted nearly 60 years ( but that could be because he creosoted it)

if you use ply it would be 12mm outer, 12mm to 15mm closing strip, 18mm inner 20mm

 

[beebreeder]

My single skin 18mm ply boxes are fairly heavy but put another skin and it will be heavier still, and more expensive and to what end?

 

[MuswellMetro]

My single skin 18mm ply boxes are fairly heavy but put another skin and it will be heavier still, and more expensive and to what end?

but you can cut all the bits with a simple circular saw and without the need to rebate the top and bottom bars

 

[ksjs]

Only the weight of the brood box in ply

iI attach below another version that is lighter from an old beecraft magazine ( note the dimensions are for a cottager hive not a national)

but it show a version of a double wall that is lighter as the middle wall part is void except for the closing strip

if you use ply it would be 12mm outer, 12mm to 15mm closing strip, 18mm inner 20mm

Thanks for this. One thing that seems a bit confusing in all this is lack of detail on internal dimensions i.e. you can use whatever thickness wood you want and it doesn't matter. Now, I'm exaggerating a bit but there does seem to be some truth in this. I would have thought internal dimensions were as important as external i.e. so as to allow for bee space and avoid propolising, brace comb etc.

 

[ksjs]

I would have thought internal dimensions were as important as external i.e. so as to allow for bee space and avoid propolising, brace comb etc.

There's quite a few plans around but just found this and it's maybe the clearest I've seen. Also states that it uses 3/4 in wood which makes calculation of internal dimensions easy. Still, metric would be nice but I'll just have to do the conversion:

http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/11-frame-british-national-hive/

Quite how imperial was ever a good idea I'm unsure, nothing relates to anything or did it all evolve from the length of someone's arm, stride etc?

 

[MuswellMetro]

ok lets talk metric

the external side of a national box whether super, brood or 14x12 is 460mm

so basically it is 460mmx460mm square box with inset supports for the frames

the internal dimension are if using metric wood 19mm /18mm

422mm to 424 mm by 370mm to 372mm depending on the use of 19mm or 18mm wood

the depth of the boxes are

super 150mm
brood 225mm
14x12 304mm ( i make mine 305mm)

a 14x12 Eke to convert a standard brood to a 14x12 is 89 0r 90mm high and 460mm square, with internal dimension 370x424 ( or 372x422)

 

[MuswellMetro]

i have some supers made to the cottage style design and they are in 12mm ply because they are lighter and are in the garage for 10 months of the year

so make four sides 460mm by 150mm in 12mm ply into a 460mm square box

two inner sides 126mm high by 436mm (ie 460-2x12mm)(150-7mm bottom 17mm top)
and 4 closing strips of pine 436mm by 20mm width x20mm depth ( or 20width x any) the top closing strip is 17mm from the top of the box, bottom closing strip 7mm from bottom

add 7mm metal frame runner , the internal dimension should then be 436x 372

okif not using frame runners then the inner is 7mm higher and 133mm deep (126+7)

( NB: the top closing strips if using 133mm are still 17mm from the top but the inner is set 7mm higher at 10mm from the top so you have a biult in 7mm (17mm-10mm) frame runner (perhaps cut at angle to help with proplis..NB)

i make sure when fitting that a standard frame top bar is level with the top of the box rather measure to a mm....i am not that acturate with the saw

 

[REDWOOD]

found these plans last week in metric
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16932

 

[REDWOOD]

i have some supers made to the cottage style design and they are in 12mm ply because they are lighter and are in the garage for 10 months of the year

so make four sides 460mm by 150mm in 12mm ply into a 460mm square box

two inner sides 126mm high by 436mm (ie 460-2x12mm)(150-7mm bottom 17mm top)
and 4 closing strips of pine 436mm by 20mm width x20mm depth ( or 20width x any) the top closing strip is 17mm from the top of the box, bottom closing strip 7mm from bottom

add 7mm metal frame runner , the internal dimension should then be 436x 372

okif not using frame runners then the inner is 7mm higher and 133mm deep (126+7)

( NB: the top closing strips if using 133mm are still 17mm from the top but the inner is set 7mm higher at 10mm from the top so you have a biult in 7mm (17mm-10mm) frame runner (perhaps cut at angle to help with proplis..NB)

i make sure when fitting that a standard frame top bar is level with the top of the box rather measure to a mm....i am not that acturate with the saw

Hi, I like the look of these BB's a lot easier to build than the national, the only thing is are there any handles for lifting or will I have to improvise.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Hi, I like the look of these BB's a lot easier to build than the national, the only thing is are there any handles for lifting or will I have to improvise.

mine have large holes cut in the outer double skin...these are made by drilling four holes and joining up by cutting out to make an oblong hand hold...similar to the original non modified national ( ie before the current BS National design)

 

[ksjs]

ok lets talk metric

the external side of a national box whether super, brood or 14x12 is 460mm

so basically it is 460mmx460mm square box with inset supports for the frames

the internal dimension are if using metric wood 19mm /18mm

422mm to 424 mm by 370mm to 372mm depending on the use of 19mm or 18mm wood

the depth of the boxes are

super 150mm
brood 225mm
14x12 304mm ( i make mine 305mm)

a 14x12 Eke to convert a standard brood to a 14x12 is 89 0r 90mm high and 460mm square, with internal dimension 370x424 ( or 372x422)

Thanks for indulging my idiocy - cheers!

 

[ksjs]

found these plans last week in metric
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16932

These look good / v clear but the advantage of Muswell's design is that there are no rebates to cut and so very simple to make.

 

[ksjs]

i have some supers made to the cottage style design and they are in 12mm ply because they are lighter and are in the garage for 10 months of the year

so make four sides 460mm by 150mm in 12mm ply into a 460mm square box

two inner sides 126mm high by 436mm (ie 460-2x12mm)(150-7mm bottom 17mm top)
and 4 closing strips of pine 436mm by 20mm width x20mm depth ( or 20width x any) the top closing strip is 17mm from the top of the box, bottom closing strip 7mm from bottom

add 7mm metal frame runner , the internal dimension should then be 436x 372

okif not using frame runners then the inner is 7mm higher and 133mm deep (126+7)

( NB: the top closing strips if using 133mm are still 17mm from the top but the inner is set 7mm higher at 10mm from the top so you have a biult in 7mm (17mm-10mm) frame runner (perhaps cut at angle to help with proplis..NB)

i make sure when fitting that a standard frame top bar is level with the top of the box rather measure to a mm....i am not that acturate with the saw

Really clear, much appreciated. Will be putting this into practice weather permitting this week...

 

[ksjs]

the internal dimension are if using metric wood 19mm /18mm

422mm to 424 mm by 370mm to 372mm depending on the use of 19mm or 18mm wood

Just been working through this and have 2 questions:

1. Should the internal dimension above not be 422mm to 424mm by 388mm to 384mm? In other words the shorter dimension is: 460mm total external length less 18 or 19 x 4. 4 because there are 4 widths of 18 or 19mm wood.

2. What do you do for a handle on the cottage style construction? Surely not practical to drill hand slots in 12mm ply? Or is the answer simply to use a 'full' sheet instead of closing strips i.e. you could drill deeper into this (you'd have 32mm in total to work with and a 20mm - 25mm deep hand slot would probably be fine)?

Cheers.