Number of wires on National Brood frame

[Poddy]

Planning on wiring my National brood frames, now the question is 3 or 4 strands and at what spacing?

 

[rolande]

3 works OK but we have gone over to 4 in the last few years. Seems to make a better job of it. Also means that both ends of the wire are fastened on the same sidebar so there's no need to stretch across to knock that final pin in. As for spacing, I couldn't say off the top of my head but could measure what we do tomorrow if needed. To be truthful there's not so much length to a bs sidebar that you get much choice of where to put the wires anyway!

 

[Poddy]

3 works OK but we have gone over to 4 in the last few years. Seems to make a better job of it. Also means that both ends of the wire are fastened on the same sidebar so there's no need to stretch across to knock that final pin in. As for spacing, I couldn't say off the top of my head but could measure what we do tomorrow if needed. To be truthful there's not so much length to a bs sidebar that you get much choice of where to put the wires anyway!

I was thinking 4 wires for the reason above, and evenly spaced. Its the evenly space i'm not sure of.

 

[pargyle]

I just use three and I'm on 14 x 12 frames. So I would imagine that three on a standard national would be more than enough. I'm foundationless and if three wires work for me with no foundation - should be OK for Nationals.

 

[user 20297]

I just use three and I'm on 14 x 12 frames. So I would imagine that three on a standard national would be more than enough. I'm foundationless and if three wires work for me with no foundation - should be OK for Nationals.

I use two on a standard deep and one or none on a standard shallow.

 

[pargyle]

I use two on a standard deep and one or none on a standard shallow.

Yes ... I don't wire my super frames either ....

 

[oliver90owner]

Question might be: Do you extract from deep frames?

Otherwise, unwired is quite satisfactory after a few brood cycles have stiffened the frames a little (for those that are not well practised in inverting frames). One needs to be very careful with 14 x 12 frames until they get well ‘reinforced’.

 

[rolande]

Question might be: Do you extract from deep frames?

Otherwise, unwired is quite satisfactory after a few brood cycles have stiffened the frames a little (for those that are not well practised in inverting frames). One needs to be very careful with 14 x 12 frames until they get well ‘reinforced’.

What became the standard method of 'inverting frames' was of course actually a hangover from earlier, pre-foundation times, so it should(!) stand to reason that it's an integral part of working foundationless frames.

The only question @Poddy really needs to ask, having decided to wire his frames, is whether he's going to do as good a job as he can or if he can skimp things a little bit.

 

[mbc]

I wire national brood frames with two horizontal strands, super frames one.
Very seldom get blow outs in the extractor.
Works for me, but I do make a lot of my own foundation which is a little thicker than the shop bought stuff.

 

[rolande]

I wire national brood frames with two horizontal strands, super frames one.
Very seldom get blow outs in the extractor.
Works for me, but I do make a lot of my own foundation which is a little thicker than the shop bought stuff.

We prefer to use three wires in the shallow, which I concede is overkill, but we do so because trial has shown that the wire remains taught much longer than it does in the frames with just two wires (of which there are plenty) this reduces work when comb is being replaced with foundation. Whether it's really worthwhile is an entirely personal opinion, the important thing is that I think it is!

Worth pointing out that I rarely replaced comb in the old days whereas I now try to keep a fresh rotation going through the hives.

 

[oliver90owner]

The only question @Poddy really needs to ask, having decided to wire his frames, is whether he's going to do as good a job as he can or if he can skimp things a little bit.

My reply, if you didn’t notice, means you can skimp it completely if he is able to turn a frame adeptly and doesnt intend extracting (radially) those frames. So, by extrapolation (or perhaps interpolation?) he can work it out for himself without further ado.

In my book, amount of frame wiring can be from zero to any number you might choose. The more that is used, the more cells which will be ignored for brooding.

 

[rolande]

My reply, if you didn’t notice, means you can skimp it completely if he is able to turn a frame adeptly and doesnt intend extracting (radially) those frames. So, by extrapolation (or perhaps interpolation?) he can work it out for himself without further ado.

In my book, amount of frame wiring can be from zero to any number you might choose. The more that is used, the more cells which will be ignored for brooding.

Yes, I did notice. That's exactly why I pointed out that it's the question he needs to consider.

Lots of people advising half a job. I've no problem with that myself because I always work on the principle of doing the best I can.

As for missed cells? What are you talking about? We rarely, very rarely, see lines of missed cells. Its far more common for me to see lines of missed cells in other people's hives where prewired foundation is used. Maybe it has something to do with standard British prewiring being done on the diagonal while we wire on the horizontal. I don't know. What I do know is that my wiring doesn't result in the level of cell drop out that you appear to be used to.

 

[Murox]

Yes, I did notice. That's exactly why I pointed out that it's the question he needs to consider.

Lots of people advising half a job. I've no problem with that myself because I always work on the principle of doing the best I can.

As for missed cells? What are you talking about? We rarely, very rarely, see lines of missed cells. Its far more common for me to see lines of missed cells in other people's hives where prewired foundation is used. Maybe it has something to do with standard British prewiring being done on the diagonal while we wire on the horizontal. I don't know. What I do know is that my wiring doesn't result in the level of cell drop out that you appear to be used to.

You could well be correct; I see virtually zero missed cells on frames I wire horizontally.

 

[Poddy]

Thanks for your replies, I plan on extracting from deep frames, and so wish to have as few blowouts as possible using a radial extractor. I plan on putting in all 4 eyelet in each side on the frame with a eyelet punch in one go so taking much of the hassle away of drilling and punching in single eyelets. I plan on using stainless wire and then here is my second point what wire size to use, to get as few missing or unlaid cells, but having a wire that will last years.
I have 1500 frames to do so want to get it right the first time and not experiment too much.

 

[Newbeeneil]

Thanks for your replies, I plan on extracting from deep frames, and so wish to have as few blowouts as possible using a radial extractor. I plan on putting in all 4 eyelet in each side on the frame with a eyelet punch in one go so taking much of the hassle away of drilling and punching in single eyelets. I plan on using stainless wire and then here is my second point what wire size to use, to get as few missing or unlaid cells, but having a wire that will last years.
I have 1500 frames to do so want to get it right the first time and not experiment too much.

That's a lot of frames for someone with no hives!

Edit. Sorry, it's your hive TYPE that is none.

 

[rolande]

The stuff which we've used most recently came from Simon the beekeeper as we only needed a relatively small amount, I think it was 0.5mm, but I may be misremembering that, certainly gave no issues. Previously it was easy to get 0.4mm but none of the dedicated bee supply companies had any in stock when I needed it. Not looked since.

I'd be interested to see the punch that you've invested in.

 

[Swarm]

I've not wired frames but remembering my times hand twisting, 0.5mm seems quite thick.

 

[user 20297]

I've not wired frames but remembering my times hand twisting, 0.5mm seems quite thick.

0.4mm stainless is great.

 

[rolande]

I've not wired frames but remembering my times hand twisting, 0.5mm seems quite thick.

It was, but worked without issue. I have a feeling its simply what's coming out of China as 'frame wire'.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for your replies, I plan on extracting from deep frames, and so wish to have as few blowouts as possible using a radial extractor. I plan on putting in all 4 eyelet in each side on the frame with a eyelet punch in one go so taking much of the hassle away of drilling and punching in single eyelets. I plan on using stainless wire and then here is my second point what wire size to use, to get as few missing or unlaid cells, but having a wire that will last years.
I have 1500 frames to do so want to get it right the first time and not experiment too much.

I doubt that an eyelet punch will do the job .,.,

1. I use these eyelets ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303715172518?hash=item46b6d5c0a6:g:L1sAAOSw7mNcd1xJ
2. I drill two side bars at a time using a pillar drill with a 4mm drill and a jig to line the holes up - then I make the frames up.

3. I insert the eyelets using a tool I made out of an old bradawl so I can pick them up on the end of it and press them into the holes, they are slightly bigger than the holes so they stay in.

4. Another jig that has the spool of wire on a spindle, a piece of 2 x 1 timber about a metre long and a peg to tell me how much wire to cut off. I use the stainless frame wire from Simon the beekeeper here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262314484542?hash=item3d1329633e:g:TrIAAOSwDuJW1Xvq
5. Nail the first end of the wire into the side of the frame side bar next to the bottom eyelet then pass the wire through each eyelet tensioning it as you go. Pull it as tight as you can when you get to the last eyelet and nail in the side bar. The key to nailing is to drive the nail in part of the way, wrap the wire round it a couple of times then finish driving the nail in.

6. I crimp the wires using one of these crimping tools which tensions the wire fully:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284567808650?hash=item4241902a8a:g:xOYAAOSwKfVXKC01
Pretty straightforward if you are organised. You really don't need 4 horizontal wires - it's not necessary thee is suffiicient - the comb won't blow out any more with 3 wires than it will with 4 - the key to fresh comb spinning is to spin it gently and longer until the bulk of the honey is out. Another reason is that four wires adds a further length of wire which means you have more to pull through and tension - makes it harder and takes more time.

You will need a pair of wire cutters to cut the wire and a pair of pliers to help with tensioning - grip the wire with the pliers and lever against the side bar to tighten it the bend it over the edge of the eyelet which will retain some of the tension - the last pull at the end grip the wire and wrap it round the part inserted nail.

Are you going to be adding foundation or are you going foundationless ?