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Jim Lavie 

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I'm new, bees since the summer so sorry if this is too simplistic.
I plan to move from national brood box to my new 12X14 in spring.
I have 11 frames with foundation in my brood box and thought I would use 11 in the 12X14 but foundation and frames are mostly sold in units of 10, why? Should I just use 10 and a dummy board or is the dummy me?
 

the naked beekeeper 

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I'm new, bees since the summer so sorry if this is too simplistic.
I plan to move from national brood box to my new 12X14 in spring.
I have 11 frames with foundation in my brood box and thought I would use 11 in the 12X14 but foundation and frames are mostly sold in units of 10, why? Should I just use 10 and a dummy board or is the dummy me?
No 11 frames and a dummy board is what I use in a National.
12 frames and you'll roll the bees.

Frames come in 10 when hives take 11 probably for £. ie. you have to buy that extra pack!
 

Mike a 

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The best option imho would be a bailey change (See Here) this way all brood will emerge and you wont set them back several weeks.

If you plan to shook swarm I wouldn't put in all 10 and expect them to draw out all of them I prefer to give 4 and a frame feeder and pack out the remaining empty space but this does depend how big the colony is so you may need to give more than 4 frames. I think 10 14x12 frames is fine, but of course you should judge if they need an 11th frame later in the season.

Or swap in the brood nest on the National frames and add 2 14x12 at time until they start drawing them out then add another two keeping the dummy board on the outside and pack out any empty space. Personally I'm not a fan of this option as the colony is more likely to build comb below the National frames instead of working side ways.

I used to shook swarm every two years to give each colony a fresh clean start, but since learning of the bailey change option I won't shook swarm to clean equipment unless the colony had a major problem with Varroa or another serious problem. Lastly if they build up quickly and manage to fill the new hive and decide to go into swarm mode do you have a 14x12 nuc on standby?
 

MuswellMetro 

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I'm new, bees since the summer so sorry if this is too simplistic.
I plan to move from national brood box to my new 12X14 in spring.
I have 11 frames with foundation in my brood box and thought I would use 11 in the 12X14 but foundation and frames are mostly sold in units of 10, why? Should I just use 10 and a dummy board or is the dummy me?

treat it as putting a standard nuc into a 14x12, unless you want to do a shook swarm or bailley change

so remove the stores and empty frames in spring and you should have 4 or five frames with brood

dress the 14x12 box with one frames of 14x12, next add the five standard brood and then fill up with five frames 14x12 + dummy to make 11 frames, feed dilute syrup and when the have drawn out all but one of the 14x12 frames place that frame in the middle of the brood frames

place the stores frames one at a time on their side until each clean above the crown board
use the remain four frames to change the old standard brood frames next year but keep one standard brood frame in the brood area for drones brood underneath the frame

modified shook swarm:

place 10 14x12 frames and the frame the queen is on (a standard frame for drone brood) in the new box, shake all the rest of the bees in, close the box up ( and run away:))

feed dilute syrup until the have drawn out the frames ( or most if a flow is on)


i bet no one agrees with me, but that what i do
 
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Jim Lavie 

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Thanks for the replies, my plan was to go for the baily change. The nuc frames I started with are very dark brown almost black. I would also like to expand but that plan
I feel is dependant on queen cells next year.
 

MJBee 

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I would also like to expand but that plan
I feel is dependant on queen cells next year.
Having completed your Baily frame change the colony should build up quickly and if not given extra space in the form of a super or two will go into swarm mode - Voila your queen cells for expansion:hurray: Be warned though it requires VERY careful weekly inspections and a shook swarm so read up on that too.

Nice to be discussing next season and plans etc before Christmas:Angel_anim:
 

Jim Lavie 

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Be warned though it requires VERY careful weekly inspections and a shook swarm so read up on that too.
Why would I require a shook swarm? I have read about the technique but could I not just artificial swarm if and when queen cells produced?:confused:
 

Poly Hive 

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First of all Jim it is an oddity of beekeeping that the hives take 11 frames and the foundation vendors sell in 10's.

The answer of course is to buy 2 packs. :)

There are keen advocates of comb change, and they will tell you your colony will benefit hugely and so on.

I am not so sure and it is not something I practise.

The classic way of getting rid of your combs that you are not happy with is to "Work them out" which is to say move them to the side of the brood box where they will emerge and then be back filled with pollen. This again is a bit dubious all in all as it often fails.

I would put them in a 2nd brood box and put same above an excluder and let them hatch out there next year then dump them if you want.

It is better to have direct control over these matters than to hope it works...

Enjoy your bees,

PH
 

oliver90owner 

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Jim,,

frames are mostly sold in units of 10, why?

I was just going to say 'simplicity for counting'. Decimalised or metricated society, these days (well, some of us are!).

You will always need at least some more, as P H says, for comb replacement, so complaining is, perhaps, simply taking a very short term view of the beekeeping process.

Most know, or soon realise, that two colonies are better than one, for several reasons of husbandry. That represents an immediate increase of 100% for brood boxes, roof and floors - and frames.

Sensible beeks have back-up for the swarming season, so further investment. Some soon put out bait hives as a part of their beekeeping strategy.

And you are worrying about a few surplus frames? A very minor detail in the larger picture.

You could have chosen WBC as your format and ten frames would be the frame count, but a new WBC would be much more expense than an extra pack of frames/foundation.

Further, some may sell made-up frames in single units, perhaps, but certainly most offer a complete box including frames. Maybe that is the way you could have considered to purchase your items.

Frankly, I just buy them by the 50 pack, and sometimes in multiple packs. Have done from my early days of beekeeping.

It is near 125 quid to buy a 14 x 12 with frames from a well known supplier and it is not immediately clear if that includes foundation!. I, personally, would not go that way!

Regardes RAB
 

justme 

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Hi Jim,
Not sure why most frames are sold in 10's when many/most use 11 but OSB frames are sold in 12's. Probably because Tim who came up with the OSB (rose) hive idea suggested it was a good idea to Th**nes (the only supplier) as 12 fit easily into OSB boxes.

Dont know whether suggesting to suppliers that 11 would be a sensible idea would work?
 
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Skyhook 

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I'm new, bees since the summer so sorry if this is too simplistic.
I plan to move from national brood box to my new 12X14 in spring.
I have 11 frames with foundation in my brood box and thought I would use 11 in the 12X14 but foundation and frames are mostly sold in units of 10, why? Should I just use 10 and a dummy board or is the dummy me?
I'm in similar position. I'm reckoning to use 9/10 frames of new 12 x 14, and 1 or 2 of the exisitng std frames for drone brood culling.
 

MuswellMetro 

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I'm in similar position. I'm reckoning to use 9/10 frames of new 12 x 14, and 1 or 2 of the exisitng std frames for drone brood culling.
Bees with not only drawn drone comb under a standard frame in a 14x12. If you put 5 standard frames from a Nuc in to a 14x12 , yes they will biuld some drone, but mainly wild normal brood comb underneath

thornes catailgue also sells part singularly ,so you can by the bits for a single frame

but why not buy 50 14x12 seconds for about £40 rather than 20 firsts for £35:20, you can always used the 5% bad ones for firewood:smilielol5:
 

MJBee 

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Sorry Jim,
Short circuit between brain and typing finger(s) - Delete "shook" insert "artificial"
:blush5:Mike
 

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