Not treating varroa

[foghornleghorn]

FL, Are you trying to figure out if mite resistance traits are reliable enough to stop treating?

The first three years after I stopped treating were pretty rough. I lost 30% of my colonies one year. I split the remaining colonies and built back up. From 2010 to now averaged 10% winter losses. This past winter was 0, however, I combined several small colonies last fall that probably would not have made it. Note that I've been trying to raise extra queens which means I usually have some small colonies at the end of summer.

I have had repeated problems with hive beetles in late summer overwhelming small colonies. This makes queen production very dicey. I've stopped raising queens in the fall which means I have to put a lot more effort into producing queens for spring splits.

Yes. It would seem that even with the best bees it's not anywhere near reliable yet. Currently I am of the opinion that a major shift in.virus types must happen before losses are to stabilize.
The fact the heritability is so low would seem to back this up that there's more going on in the background...

 

[B+.]

Are your average annual losses really that bad that you're too embarrassed to share them?

If I knew off the top of my head, I probably wouldn't be but, as I said earlier, I would have to trawl back through all my old records to work out the "average annual loss"...and I'm really not prepared to do that. Some of these records are in storage and older ones are binned. Even the tax man doesn't ask you to keep records indefinitely!
You really have to be clear about what you're asking. "Annual loss" would be a single figure but it would probably change each year. "Average annual loss" would be a single figure going back to when I first started keeping bees (30+ years in my case). I just don't have that information! You also have to ask what meaning it would have. Do you include All colonies (including nucs, mating hives, etc? - I don't even have all those queens if they were mated for sale). What about their age? Do I include 2017, 2016, 2015, etc queens? How old does the information have to be before it becomes irrelevant?
What I am saying is that your question doesn't make any sense.
The only meaningful answer is the one I gave you at the beginning. My nearest apiary contained 32 colonies (2017 test colonies plus a few 2018 open mated daughters). I lost 2. That equates to a 6.25% loss.
Each apiary would be different but what you really have to ask is: Is 6.25% normal among beekeepers? Moreover, is it normal among colonies that have never been treated? I would suggest that it is lower than beekeepers in general, even those who do treat for varroa.

 

[Fusion_power]

Currently I am of the opinion that a major shift in.virus types must happen before losses are to stabilize.

This does not match my experience. I have very few mites in my colonies. Reports from beekeepers studying less infectious DWV indicate moderate to heavy varroa loads. With a drastic reduction in mite count, virus load becomes almost a non-issue.

Keep in mind that there are two types of varroa mites. It is highly likely that only one is present in my hives. Also, I have no idea what viruses are present in my bees. I'm satisfied that they are alive, have very low mite counts, don't need treating, and reliably produce a crop of honey.

There are negatives with highly mite resistant bees. Requeening is very difficult. They winter with small colonies equivalent to about 3 Dadant combs of clustered bees. They can have other problems such as stinging propensity as mentioned earlier in this thread, though I am certain this can be selected against.

The first queen I found with measurable varroa resistance had significant A.M.m. genetics. If I were in your area, I would be looking for varroa resistance in the remnants of this race.

 

[foghornleghorn]

If I knew off the top of my head, I probably wouldn't be but, as I said earlier, I would have to trawl back through all my old records to work out the "average annual loss"...and I'm really not prepared to do that. Some of these records are in storage and older ones are binned. Even the tax man doesn't ask you to keep records indefinitely!
You really have to be clear about what you're asking. "Annual loss" would be a single figure but it would probably change each year. "Average annual loss" would be a single figure going back to when I first started keeping bees (30+ years in my case). I just don't have that information! You also have to ask what meaning it would have. Do you include All colonies (including nucs, mating hives, etc? - I don't even have all those queens if they were mated for sale). What about their age? Do I include 2017, 2016, 2015, etc queens? How old does the information have to be before it becomes irrelevant?
What I am saying is that your question doesn't make any sense.
The only meaningful answer is the one I gave you at the beginning. My nearest apiary contained 32 colonies (2017 test colonies plus a few 2018 open mated daughters). I lost 2. That equates to a 6.25% loss.
Each apiary would be different but what you really have to ask is: Is 6.25% normal among beekeepers? Moreover, is it normal among colonies that have never been treated? I would suggest that it is lower than beekeepers in general, even those who do treat for varroa.

Lol

 

[foghornleghorn]

This does not match my experience. I have very few mites in my colonies. Reports from beekeepers studying less infectious DWV indicate moderate to heavy varroa loads. With a drastic reduction in mite count, virus load becomes almost a non-issue.

Keep in mind that there are two types of varroa mites. It is highly likely that only one is present in my hives. Also, I have no idea what viruses are present in my bees. I'm satisfied that they are alive, have very low mite counts, don't need treating, and reliably produce a crop of honey.

There are negatives with highly mite resistant bees. Requeening is very difficult. They winter with small colonies equivalent to about 3 Dadant combs of clustered bees. They can have other problems such as stinging propensity as mentioned earlier in this thread, though I am certain this can be selected against.

The first queen I found with measurable varroa resistance had significant A.M.m. genetics. If I were in your area, I would be looking for varroa resistance in the remnants of this race.

Amm here are definitely no more resistant than the other breeds I've used.
I think that viruses could be affecting the mites ability to reproduce. It would explain a lot of why many beekeepers queens who survive without treatment in their own apiary don't show much resistance when introduced in other beekeepers apiaries

 

[Ian123]

Hi Fusion the fact that you have purchased in bees with African genes means you are working with a natural advantage compared to most other beeks in this forum. Plus i believe you have a natural back ground of colonies of africanised bees in your area...pls correct me if i am wrong. For those not aware Africanised colonies can co-exist to a degree with varroa due to traits in that race, frequent swarming, shorter capped brood period, grooming/ less tolerant of parrasites

 

[Beefriendly]

less tolerant of parrasites

Thought they were less tolerant of beekeepers........

 

[Finman]

with African genes means .... traits in that race, frequent swarming, shorter capped brood period, grooming/ less tolerant of parrasites

And to add: Where Africanized bees exist in USA, hobby beekeeping has stopped.
You must put protection on 1/2 km before hives and bees may follow 1 km from hives aftwr nursing.

 

[Ian123]

FL, Are you trying to figure out if mite resistance traits are reliable enough to stop treating?

The first three years after I stopped treating were pretty rough. I lost 30% of my colonies one year.

**** at that rate you could join the bbka!!!!

Sorry fusion could not resist that, its not aimed at you but us locals

 

[bingevader]

There is mention in this of human vaccine such as MMR
We are aware that our own antibiotics will soon become ineffective due to developing immunity of the target and the NBU has stopped recommending the initial varroa treatments so surely it's inevitable down the line that the chemicals will stop working.

Sorry, I've only just read the whole thread, but just wanted to correct this as you are conflating to separate things.
Antibiotics are curative and these days akin to a broad-based bleach, hence their current effectiveness, but long term vulnerability.
Vaccinations are preventative, usually based on dead strains of the virus to be treated and so give the chance of specificity to particular viruses.

As far as the topic goes, I'm afraid it's up to you big boys to fight it out and let us know the solution when you have finished!
I 'd like to go treatment free, but as a hobby bee keeper, with a handful of hives, not treating at the moment is not a viable proposition.
I can't afford to lose any number of hives each year due to varroa.
Until resistant bees are readily available in my area, I have to treat.
This is a national problem and until a consensus is reached, that has clearly not been reached here, we're all doomed to continue treating.

 

[blackcloud]

Antibiotics are curative and these days akin to a broad-based bleach, hence their current effectiveness, but long term vulnerability.
Vaccinations are preventative, usually based on dead strains of the virus to be treated and so give the chance of specificity to particular viruses.
.

I'm in the same situation-I currently wouldn't dare not-treat.
My point around chemical,vaccine (and Mr Jenkins amputation!) or whatever treatments is that they will ultimately be prone to obsolescence and this has already begun.
Even if they remain "effective",such as OA the process is still at risk from a government agency taking exception to the use of a particular substance
We no longer dip sheep (thankfully) or tray our fence posts with creosote-niether case is because we decided that ourselves.
We have to think outside the box and not rely on the next (increasingly desparate ) concoction to arrive on time

 

[Murox]

So there are various ways of tackling varroa. Organic acids such as Oxalic, thymol based stuff various chemicals/pharmaceuticals and heat treatments, don't do anything, and using Varroa Sensitive Hygenic bees/queens (where can I get some from in the UK?).
Which of the significant beekeeping associations is supporting/advocating/funding the development of VSH bees in the UK? or any other method of combating varroa?

 

[Finman]

So there are various ways of tackling varroa. Organic acids such as Oxalic, thymol based stuff various chemicals/pharmaceuticals and heat treatments, don't do anything, and using Varroa Sensitive Hygenic bees/queens (where can I get some from in the UK?).
Which of the significant beekeeping associations is supporting/advocating/funding the development of VSH bees in the UK? or any other method of combating varroa?

Wait for innovation, if you do not know what to do.

 

[Murox]

Wait for innovation, if you do not know what to do.

Varroa has been around for ?? how many years ?!!

 

[Murox]

Wait for innovation, if you do not know what to do.

I treat with oxalic vape.

 

[Finman]

Varroa has been around for ?? how many years ?!!

I have had varroa 30 years, from year 1987.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have had varroa 30 years, from year 1997.

What year is it in Finland now?

 

[Finman]

What year is it in Finland now?

That varroa start year was 1987

Why I mentioned "innonvation"?

We have this spring parliament elections, and climate change is popular. We should abandon cars, power stations, forest harvesting and many others.

When it is asked, how to do it, politicians say that we must encourage innovations.

In this forum it it same with mite. Recent treatments are not good. We need innovations.

Oxalic vaping has been invented in Japan 55 years ago.
.

 

[ASPIRERITE]

As much as I like pulling peoples legs and acting the clown leaving people guessing as to I'm serious or not Ill try to be serious as I can here and add my 2 cents. I treat for Varroa because I cant afford not to and I don't think I have enough hives to risk them. If I had a surplus of hives I would set up an apiary and buy as many so called resistant lines as I could get hold of and see for myself

 

[B+.]

As much as I like pulling peoples legs and acting the clown leaving people guessing as to I'm serious or not Ill try to be serious as I can here and add my 2 cents. I treat for Varroa because I cant afford not to and I don't think I have enough hives to risk them. If I had a surplus of hives I would set up an apiary and buy as many so called resistant lines as I could get hold of and see for myself

Its ironic that I stopped treating because I couldn't afford the soaring cost of treatments.

Back in the 90's a 5 hive treatment of Bayvarrol cost £25. I had 30 hives then, so, 6 boxes would have cost £150.
As a struggling student, I had to make a choice between treating my bees and continuing my studies. The choice really was that clear. So, I continued my studies. I lost colonies, but some survived. I realised that all I was doing was lining the pockets of BAYER and the other chemical companies. This was long before we discovered that wax was soaking up the chemicals and making drones infertile though.