No Queen, Re-queening help!

[thedozzer]

Quick summery, 14x12 hive, swarmed twice, had piping queen, now no sign of eggs, larvae and could not find queen, think she may have been damaged on last inspection, my bad as think she had made it through QE and got squished when moving suppers. Found queens in other hives.

So we have a few options,
1 Buy in GM queen and improve breeding stock. but £40!!
2 steal frame of eggs/larvae from other hive and let them build QC and sort them selves, but will take another 2-3 weeks before Queen right (do we need to shake all the bees off first to stop fighting)
3 we have spare nuc with newly mated Queen, laying well that was put aside as insurance policy that we were going to give to someone.

we are OK with what to do with 1 & 2 sort of. but would like ideas/help on how to used the nuc, we don't have any spare equipment, its Masi poly hive so you cant take the bottom off. what is the best way to get the nuc Queen and her current colony into the Q- hive, do we just let the hive die off and then swap or is there a better way? the Q- hive is still brining in lots of pollen & Nectar so feel a bit bad about just letting them die out.
We quite like these bees as they are not the most productive, but are healthy and don't seem to have much varoa.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

A colony wouldn't swarm without leaving a queen to take over. When do you think the queen emerged?

She needs 5 or 6 days before she is mature enough to mate and she will only do so if the weather is good enough (18 degrees). She will them mature for a few more days before she starts laying.

Can you see polished cells where the queen would be expected to lay? If so she is there. You can put in a test frame from another colony - if they raise queecells, then you HAVE killed her!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

timescales would be handy
They swarmed so therefore you would have a queen cell, when did that emerge?
There is sometimes quite a wait before the new queen gets mated then laying.
More queens purchased in panic then sent to their deaths by being introduced in already Q+ colonies than you can imagine.
The exercising of patience and the ability not to panic is a neccessary part of beekeeping (as is the ability to filter out the rubbish advice from the good )

 

[drex]

As already said, put in a test frame before even thinking any further ahead. You need to be as sure as you can be about queen status, rather than just assuming. The bees will likely survive without any intervention from you. They have done so for thousands of years

 

[thedozzer]

timescales would be handy
They swarmed so therefore you would have a queen cell, when did that emerge?
There is sometimes quite a wait before the new queen gets mated then laying.
More queens purchased in panic then sent to their deaths by being introduced in already Q+ colonies than you can imagine.
The exercising of patience and the ability not to panic is a necessary part of beekeeping (as is the ability to filter out the rubbish advice from the good )

Hi JB, HBGB & Drex
Sorry forgot to put in time scale = 16th April first swarm, 17th April did split with 4 frames (doing well) 22th April new the queen had started piping and did for about 14 days then we did an inspection 6th May, and knocked the last few QC down, 2 were just about to emerge, Squished them, and the queen still piping until 7th took and empty supper off that they hadn't drawn. when i did that did see a small queen with damaged wings. so put her back in hive but if she is the piping queen she would not be able to mate? piping stopped.

there are lots of empty cells, but quite a lot are being filled with nectar so not many polished open ones!

I take it, a frame of eggs/larvae as test frame from the strong hive is the best bet?
the bees are teaching me patience.

 

[thedozzer]

Ok Have taken frame of eggs with some caped brood on edge (and hopefully not the queen, did look twice) and put it in the suspected Q- hive, so do we just see if they draw QC in the next weeks inspection and are they likely to draw more than one?

 

[Hachi]

timescales would be handy
They swarmed so therefore you would have a queen cell, when did that emerge?
There is sometimes quite a wait before the new queen gets mated then laying.
More queens purchased in panic then sent to their deaths by being introduced in already Q+ colonies than you can imagine.
The exercising of patience and the ability not to panic is a neccessary part of beekeeping (as is the ability to filter out the rubbish advice from the good )

 

[badger65]

Once you have established the Q status. If you are Q- you can introduce the Q from the nuc to the old hive and let the nuc raise a new queen or,. You can combine the lot but you will need a new brood box.

 

[Eyeman]

Ok Have taken frame of eggs with some caped brood on edge (and hopefully not the queen, did look twice) and put it in the suspected Q- hive, so do we just see if they draw QC in the next weeks inspection and are they likely to draw more than one?

Sounds like you introduced the frame with adhering bees?

 

[thedozzer]

Sounds like you introduced the frame with adhering bees?

Hi Eyeman, yes as i have been reading that if they are young nurse bees they will do a better job of raising a QC than older bees, but i gather this was the wrong thing to do?

there was no fighting and not more than normal number of dead bees on the landing board this morning so i am hoping i didn't do to much damage, and they are all from the same queen, as one is the original hive and the other is the prime swarm, so hope that the pheromone smell is very similar?

very steep learning curve with all the swarms,hive manipulation and sadly i think the bees pay the penalty of my mistakes!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

so do we just see if they draw QC in the next weeks inspection and are they likely to draw more than one?

Yes, but be aware, even if a colony is queenless, no guarantee they will draw QC's

 

[Poly Hive]

Really? My fully Queen less colonies have never not drawn cells

PH

 

[thedozzer]

Yes, but be aware, even if a colony is queenless, no guarantee they will draw QC's

Thanks JB have read through some of the old threads and from what i can gather it can take up to three test frames?

Really? My fully Queen less colonies have never not drawn cells

PH

Hi PH im not sure my bees are as reliable as yours and cant blame them with the amount of mucking them about i have done recently. i did read from one thread that you sometimes use a graft rather than a frame to test?

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39961

you did say in 2010 there would be a "Sticky" for test frames
but think i need to keep things at bee havers level at the moment.

 

[beeno]

You had a emerging queen that might still be in the box and a piping queen last time you looked! Too early to look for eggs! Ten days after emergence is the earliest to look for eggs.

 

[Millet]

Yes, but be aware, even if a colony is queenless, no guarantee they will draw QC's

I have had that happen one of three laying worker colonies..the only way i could sort that hive out was to shake the lot of them out in the middle of the apiary..

 

[thedozzer]

You had a emerging queen that might still be in the box and a piping queen last time you looked! Too early to look for eggs! Ten days after emergence is the earliest to look for eggs.

Hi Beeno
we did have a piping queen but haven't heard her for over a week now, and they did seem a bit different when we opened them up, including bums in the air fanning, and the nuc that had a queen of almost identical age is all ready laying and had larvae!!

will see what we find when we next inspect and sit on my hands until then, think the bees will let out a sigh of relief when i get a another job, will stop me being at home interfering.

 

[thedozzer]

Quick update, did an inspection today on our suspect hive, was only a quick one as sods law it started to rain, they were like different bees, much calmer and the frame of eggs from the other hive is now all capped brood with some drone round the edge, but no QC and in 2 of the frames either side, we did see some eggs and some larvae, but very random laying pattern, so not sure if its laying workers or the new queen is just taking her time to get going. but they did all look to be in the centre of the cells so time will tell.
thanks for all the help and advice, even if it is just to sit on my hands

 

[thedozzer]

Update No 2
Well we did an inspection today and the very spotty egg laying has turned into drone brood, in fact all the new brood is drone apart from the frame of eggs we put in, and that is lovely uniform worker pattern, as they have not drawn a QC from the last frame of eggs we put in, they were very grumpy and oddly for our girls one or two were pinging the veil. we decided to put another frame of eggs in as have been reading that it is the lack of eggs/larvae that makes them become laying workers? = http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
we haven't seen a queen and think there may not be one. but is there any way to tell laying workers apart from drone laying queen? sadly they even though they are only producing drones they have finished of one supper and are drawing out a second!

we may take a frame of stores and frame of eggs from good colony and start another nuc just in case we cant fix this one.

any other ideas apart from shaking out?

 

[beeno]

It would appear you have a drone laying queen which will have to be found and despatched otherwise they will not make QC or accept an introduced queen.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

is there any way to tell laying workers apart from drone laying queen?

Laying workers usually lay in a 'spotty' irregular pattern, you miight also find multiple eggs in many cells.
DLQ will usually lay a regular pattern as she would if she was laying worker eggs.
No QC's on a frame of eggs is no conclusive proof of there being a queen in there