Newest oxalic acid researhes

[alanf]

The 3.5% solution being discussed does not need a sugar component.

Every instance of research on any scale that I can recall or find says sugar increases effectiveness at all concentrations of oxalic. The Nanetti et al summary from 2003 for instance says: "non sugar solutions resulted in noticably decreased acaricidal activity."

http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2003/nanetti.pdf

 

[Finman]

Hi
So I'm a new kid on the block! However I have been using OA in various form since 1999, working with 30 colonies. The 3.5% solution being discussed does not need a sugar component.

what ever you have done, trickling method has very carefully tested and it needs sugar component.

Before that innovation oxalic acid was used as spray, and in that system 3% water solution will be sprayed on each bee covered frame.

It has bees tested carefully, how many percent sugar is good to use.

.Nanetti invented the trickling 1997 and he used first 60% sugar and 4,2% oxalic.
Then you may see from tables, what 40% 50 and 60 makes to killing efficacy.

That simple.

Trickling was used 25 y ago with Perizin.

Nanetti's text from year 2003 is too old. Forget them. Data is from years 98-99

.

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[Finman]

.
When I made the title of chain, I thougt that information is younger than 5 y old.

.
When EU VARROA GROUP left their results, does the information stays so or has it changed.

One treatment per year order has changed. What else?

 

[yzalich]

Every instance of research on any scale that I can recall or find says sugar increases effectiveness at all concentrations of oxalic. The Nanetti et al summary from 2003 for instance says: "non sugar solutions resulted in noticably decreased acaricidal activity."


Hi

Nine years is along time! - I spoke to Nannetti at Dublin in 2005 about the sugar issue. I had been using the aqueous solution successfully for 3 years by this time - he was not moved to reconsider. I still use the 'trickle'; "water only" method 'as and when' - but the sublimation procedure is superior!
The November, 2012 issue of the "Deutsches Bienen Journal", page14(494) might make interesting reading. The article "Milbenarm ins Frühjahr" tells all in a `throw away´ statement` - in translation it reads simply - "The simplest application of the oxalic acid solution is with the use of a syringe at a time when the colony is free of brood; the method is uncomplicated and only takes a few minutes using a 3.5% oxalic acid aqueous solution with or without sugar".
The article is co-authored by Dr Pia Aumeier, Dr Gerhard Liebig and Dr Ota Boeking - three of the most respected apicultural scientist in Germany.

 

[Finman]

.
How have you verified the living mites after treatmets. What is the efficacy of water solution trickling?

How long you waited when you made calculation of living mites?

- But how sugar makes trickling more complicated than non sugar?

"but the sublimation procedure is superior!"
- based on what efficay numbers or easier to do?

.

 

[Finman]

[ 3.5% oxalic acid aqueous solution with or without sugar".
The article is co-authored by Dr Pia Aumeier, Dr Gerhard Liebig and Dr Ota Boeking - three of the most respected apicultural scientist in Germany.

I cannot find this from internet and neither from Pia Aumeier's research list.

 

[Finman]

put in google
FAIR CT97-3686. “Coordination in Europe of integrated control of Varroa mites in honey bee colonies”. APPENDIX VI to. Final Technical Report for the period ...




This document is not modern knowledge. The data is 15 years old. When EU Varroa Group started, they collected starting material, what they know and what they want to know.

Many of these "known facts" have changed appearance during work.

Nanetti says clearly that dripling with mere oxalic acid water solution gives poor efficacy.

After tests they got consensus that 3,5% OA and 50% sugar is good. Switcherland took 2,8% OA. In Italy they may use 4,2%

BUT NOWHERE exists 6% oxalic acid content in experiments.

It said that 4,2% efficient but 3,5% gives more safe limits to harms to bees.






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[Hivemaker.]

It said that 4,2% efficient but 3,5% gives more safe limits to harms to bees.
.

Do you know what kind of harm that could be?

 

[Finman]

Do you know what kind of harm that could be?

You can find reports from that time and later too that oxalic acid violates bees and brood.

But in this hobby level it is vain to read and repeat those results what guys have got.

One warning was that "absolutely one treatment per year". Later it was proved in practice and with researches that you may give more treatments.

For example last summer I sprayed a swarm with 1% oxalic water solution, because Liethuan researchers reported that it is enough and 3% makes severe harms to bees. 3% water solution has used 20 years as treatment.

So the result was, that 1% did not killed mites. Varroa made severe reduction in the colony even if it had brood in 3 boxes.

 

[Hivemaker.]

You can find reports from that time and later too that oxalic acid violates bees and brood.

I found out this year that it did not appear to harm brood, three or even four doses of 3.2% oxalic a few days apart.

 

[alanf]

Nanetti's text from year 2003 is too old. Forget them. Data is from years 98-99.

Rashid et al, writing in 2012 clearly think it's still worth citing:

Our results agreed with (Fries et al.2000; Nanetti et al.2003) who found that 3.2 % OA was effective for mites control without obvious adverse effect on bee colonies

 

[gavin]

I found out this year that it did not appear to harm brood, three or even four doses of 3.2% oxalic a few days apart.

Was that an experiment HM, or just senility causing you to repeat yourself repeat yourself?!

 

[Finman]

.

About concentrations

Nanetti writes OA concentrations and sugar concentrations on page 12.

First he mention 4,2% OA and sugar content 60%. That was over 10 years ago.
Then the group started to work.


So we can see in that time that guys used 3,5% OA and 4,2% and it does not mean that it is the same figure.

This forum has explained that that is weight volume or nonhydrate or what ever expresion,
but northern countries used 3,5% andf Italy used 4,2%.

And one number more...


Switzerland uses 100 ml 1:1 syrup + 3,5 g OA . That is not 3,5%

because 100 g sugar + 100 g water + 7,5 g OA gives 3,5%

The percent of Swiss syrup is 2,8% (3,5g OA /125 g syrup)



So 4,2% is not same as 3,5% and 2,8% is not same as 3,5 %

and 6% is not 4,2%

 

[gavin]

.
The percent of Swiss syrup is 2,8% (3,5g OA /125 g syrup)

So 4,2% is not same as 3,5% and 2,8% is not same as 3,5 %

and 6% is not 4,2%

C'mon Finman, thought we'd been through this. The values are usually expressed as w/v (of syrup) not percentage based on w/w. Add 1kg sugar and 1l water and you get 1670ml.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Was that an experiment HM, or just senility causing you to repeat yourself repeat yourself?!

Hello, hello, i treated some colonies during summer, so yes, an experiment for me personally, but carried out after talking with some of my Buckfast breeding associates from the netherlands when they visited, it is what they do,same in Denmark,and even some in Germany.

This is translated from the B Marken site,and this is for the drone providers,so no harm done to drones either.

Unlike previous years was conducted weekly from day 1. Every people got standard 2.5 liters sugar solution 1:1. During bad weather periods was fed 2x a week. In addition, the nations regularly treated with oxalic. This method had the result that the nations to end September remained tremendously vital. They were strong enough to easily can overwinter.

 

[Finman]

Q

Rashid et al, writing in 2012 clearly think it's still worth citing:

GOOD HEAVENS!!!!!!! GUYS!!!!!!

That was not question!!!!½!½!!!!!!!!!!

Several Europen countries' experts came around same table and started to clear out, what they have revieled out and where they have different results. Then they started trials where were hundred of hives in different circumtancies.

Question was not about which concentarion which kills mites and which kills hives. As yiou see, they measured the harmfullnes to human user too.

They started to reviele out, what concentration gives good efficacy against mites and what gives more safe distance against OA harmfull effects.

Then Switzerland took the lowest 2,8% OA because it gove almost same efficacy as 3,5%. That was not my idea but Seppo Korpela told this to me in phone and he was in the group. It was their shoice and 2 hive owners need not to think why they did so. And Canada did the same.
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[Finman]

C'mon Finman, thought we'd been through this. The values are usually expressed as w/v (of syrup) not percentage based on w/w. Add 1kg sugar and 1l water and you get 1670ml.

Usually? What usually have to do with this case. Usually this forum knows nothing.


Listen to me guy. I have studied 6 years in University biochemistry in Helsinki University.
Don't come to tell me how percentaces should be measured.

All my books were printed in USA


Good heavens. W/v syrup. The reason is that 1 kg water = 1 litre water.

Yes, it is handy because you see in a package " 1kg sugar" and 1 litre water. Yes, I must go so long way University and 50 years beekeeping that some wise guy teaches me what is water, finally



You do not understand, do you?

Then in alcohol bottle it is better to show v/v because it gives bigger "efficacy" number than w/w.



Carry on your pop corn eating but try to keep your mouth shut.

.

 

[Finman]

Was that an experiment HM, or just senility causing you to repeat yourself repeat yourself?!

Hivemaker makes his living with bees and earn incomes to his family. You think that is senily thing?

Have you even extracted honey from your toy hives?

 

[yzalich]

I cannot find this from internet and neither from Pia Aumeier's research list.

The November, 2012 issue of the "Deutsches Bienen Journal", page14(494) might make interesting reading. The article "Milbenarm ins Frühjahr"

IBRA receive most of the German language bee press mags and more besides of course. Ask Norman Carreck for a scan of the first page of the "Milbenarm ins Frühjahr" article. Line 11 second para., "eine 3,5% ige Lösung mit oder ohne Zucker". "mit" = "with"- "without"

 

[derekm]

In chemistry, concentration is the abundance of a constituent divided by the total volume of a mixture. Four types of mathematical description can be distinguished: mass concentration, molar concentration, number concentration, and volume concentration.[1] The term concentration can be applied to any kind of chemical mixture, but most frequently it refers to solutes in solutions
thank you wikipedia

mol gm/l is the usual term i've come across in chemistry although I only studied it one year into University in the days when sulfate was spelled sulphate

Again wikipedia

Concentration type Symbol Definition SI unit other unit(s)
mass concentration or kg/m3 g/100mL (= g/dL)
molar concentration mol/m3 M (= mol/L)
number concentration 1/m3 1/cm3
volume concentration m3/m3
Related quantities Symbol Definition SI unit other unit(s)
normality mol/m3 N (= mol/L)
molality mol/kg
mole fraction mol/mol ppm, ppb, ppt
mole ratio mol/mol ppm, ppb, ppt
mass fraction kg/kg ppm, ppb, ppt
mass ratio kg/kg ppm, ppb, ppt