new swarm, but no queen??

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meekle

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first post - so be kind to me!!

I set up a bait hive in may with some pheromone attractant as my house is sat between two apiaries so i hoped to catch a swarm. well, just as i thought that i missed it this year, i had a swarm arrive on 19th July.

The air was black when they arrived and the hive ( a national with a brood and a half) was covered in bees. By the evening they had hived themselves and it was quite busy. about a week later i opened up the hive to check on the level of activity. Most of the bees were out in the fields by the time i checked the hive (1pm) and in the deep brood box i had around three frames (all at the front) covered in bees cleaning the comb. There was no sign of any brood, eggs or queen.

I noticed that stores were low - only about a full super frame, so i placed a feeder of syrup over in case we had rain that meant the bees would starve.

I checked the hive yesterday and now i have a full brood frame of stores (uncapped) and two super frames full of stores and about a litre of syrup left - however - there is still no sign of brood, eggs or a queen.

The bees are very peaceful, in fact, if it wasnt for the fact that i am allergic i could handle them without gloves.... i have around 2 deep frames and three super frames covered both sides in bees - is that a reasonable size for a newly hived swarm?

My questions are thus:

The lure is still in the hive, should i remove this now, or is the lure what is keeping these bees placid in the apparent absence of the queen?

Should i consider buying in a queen to get the hive going?

How long before there should be signs of brood?

any other tips for me!!!
 
Its probably a cast swarm with a virgin queen and will need time to mate.

So why did you fit the super the BB is all they need and perhaps this may be large for a cast on a couple of frames.
 
Tom is right. Sounds like a cavernous space for that number of bees. reducing to BB would be sensible.
The lure can be removed, it's done it's job.
Patience is a virtue, wait and give the queen time to mate and begin to lay.
Cazza
 
You will perhaps have noticed the occupied shallows are directly above the deeps that have been drawn. That is because it is the warmest configuration,

As above, remove the shallow and leave them to get on with it as long as the weather holds and they are foraging. A divider to make the box more a less cavernous enclosure may well help them. Oh, and no holes left open in the crown board. Without brood, and foraging reasonably, they will not starve.

You could use your shallow frames of stores now or for autumn feed, but having started badly you may have some prolems with that.

A sheet of 25mm expanded polytyrene over the crown board would assist them further in retaining heat, as would insulation behind the divider. A dummy frame is better than nothing.

I would think she will be laying shortly (within a week, hopefully), dependent on the recent and current weather in your neck of the woods.
 
Welcome to the forum, and well done with the bait hive :hurray:
 
thanks for the advice. i fitted the super to make a "brood and a half" as i was told when i purchased the hive that it would allow for the formation of a natural brood shape.

There are 11 frames in the super, and two have been drawn and filled with stores - as oliver says they are above teh deep frames that are being worked, which would support the idea of forming a natural shape, albeit as you all say - the box extends backwards too far for them to keep warm.

I will (when the rain goes away) remove the shallow if thats the general opinion and leave the bees with the brood box and a crown board over with the syrup feeder over. we are forecast unsettled weather for the next week so it may be as well to give them a food source if they arent going to get airborne for any prolonged period.

i still have not seen the queen nor evidence of her laying. at what point should i assume she has gone AWOL on her mating flight and invest in a new queen?
 
I would bet she hasn't gone AWOL. As suggested she is probably unmated. Just be patient. Give her at least three weeks in this weather and remember the hive won't suddenly fill with eggs, there will be a small patch first, easy to miss!
E
 
I collected a couple of cast swarms in June and they have thrived in nucs. Would it be any benefit for the poster to move them into a nuc until they build up a little?
 
Thats if meekle has one or just put in a divider as post 4 recommends
 
Yes a nuc will be good or the unused space in the hive filled with insulation. Personally I would want to see the queen laying in the hive before I moved them into a nuc or altered the hive right now.
 
If the weather is at all dubious you may well have a long wait for the mating flight - the fact that the bees are placid is a very good sign that she is there and waiting. I'm near Edinburgh and had to wait for 5 to 6 weeks earlier this year before a split hive started laying.

As long as the bees are placid, there is no random laying (a laying worker), the cells are cleaned and polished and the bees are not on the outside of the hive running all over the place looking for the queen, then you have a queen and nature just has to take its course. Just keep looking for bees bringing in pollen - that's the surest sign that laying is taking place, and you don't have to go in and disturb them to look.

Rob
 
Just keep looking for bees bringing in pollen - that's the surest sign that laying is taking place said:
Always a good indication but by no means a sure fast way to say theres a laying queen
 
on my last look into the hive at teh end of last week there was around three of four cells on the front DP frames full of pollen, and i have seen a few bees carrying "saddlebags" as my wife calls them of pollen.... so fingers crossed

thanks for your advice so far - i am sourcing some dummy boards now so i can reduce the volume of the hive
 

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