New hives for today's superbee

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I posted this in another thread.

Quote JCBrum -

Take a standard dadant brood box and copy it in plywood, EXCEPT, you add another frame and make it 20"x20" (508x508mm), to take 12 frames.

THEN, as well you increase the depth to 18" (460)mm.

Here is the result. - same as double brood 14x12, nearly 3x national deep.

AND you can use standard frames (nearly). - just take a standard dadant brood frame and lenthen the sides by grafting on the side from a dadant super frame. Then - you can use standard foundation by making up your big brood frames with a sheet of dadant brood wax with a sheet of dadant super wax fixed to it (melt the edges together)

All from stock size stuff except you need to glue-graft the side bars to make them longer. Probably Thornes, or someone, would make them longer to order anyway.

Would this do for your super-bees ?

Endquote JCBrum.
 
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As far as frames and simplicity are concerned, a dadant frame extended down to 450mm is the easiest.

It produces 19"x18" frames which can be made from existing wood and wax components.

Make the brood box 20" (508mm) square to take 12 frames as above and it will hold 216,000 cells.

It's a square Dadant which is 18" deep.

JC.

I have a couple of Dadant hives amongst my Apiary, and am slowly in the process of converting more hives to this system. I will retain some BS kit because that is what the mass market wants for nucs. I love the Dadant and its massive frames, single brood box etc, but it is very very heavy. I would not want to be lifting half a dozen of the things onto a pickup. Anything larger than this would be unmanagable by a single person and possibly even by a pair. I am young, fit and strong- Dadants will not be an option as age creeps in. (If you are incorporating these hives into the beeshed, this is not an issue)

On the subject of frames above, I have found that the foundation for Dadants sags a bit, and the wire is not very supportive- the next frames I will wire myself for this reason. A 19" x 18" frame would be a nightmare- I think that it would want a middle bar to break the span a bit, and any misshandling of frames by holding them horizontally (which we all do at some point or another), you carry a risk of frame breakage.

I encourage the exploration of new ideas, but I 100% believe that the Dadant hive is as large as is sensible to go. I dont particularly like the ego hive, but I can understand where Tim Rose is coming from with having smaller, more managable boxes to lift.

mc
 
H Pete and Marcros, I think if you put two diagonal cross-wires on each frame it will make it rigid (Bi-plane wing), and support the centre of the wax at the same time.

I think that's all that would be necessary for 19"x18" grooved frames, but I suppose you could add a vertical and a horizontal wire as well, all crossing to support the middle, if you're of a nervous disposition.

I suggest try the simplest ideas first, and get more complex only if it's necessary.

JC.
 
thanks marcos for the input from a dadant user, i must admit i was seriously thinging about dadants before i went back to what i know best which was 12 by 14s , if i were to go more seriously into beekeeping and to have a serious view it would have to be a dadant all the way, but the type of bee i keep fits comfortable into a 12 by 14 hive so i dont need the extra room, but the conversation has finalised a super box style and we are now talking frames and brood boxes, the points you have made are excellent about the wieght and flex of frames, but these are the reasons why we went to multiply brood boxs years ago because they were esier to lift up, so what do you suggest to get around the problems
 
Does having a wooden bar across the middle of the brood frame upset the laying pattern ? would the bees dislike it ?

JC
 
The weight would be same as a standard Dadant plus 50%. (also lang-jumbo +50%)

Or about double standard Langstroth.

The JC-Jumbo hive is about the same capacity overall as 2.5 lang bbs.

I think the top bars would be ok, but I reckon I'm going to make some and try it out. If it doesn't work I'll make the top bars deeper.

JC.
 
I reckon you would need to use a frame-lifter grippy thing like Thornes sell, to avoid strain on the lugs if you use standard top bars.
 
JC-Jumbo Hive.

The JC-Jumbo hive lives ! (almost).

It's 508x508mm (20"x20") and takes 12 frames 18" (460mm) deep.

I've just had a word with a supplier and he's deciding whether he can supply the necessary bits at what price.

If he can do it I'll make up a couple of prototypes to iron out the bugs, and quote a price for flat-pack kits for those who feel like having a go with this idea.

JC.
 
p.s. It fits in with H Pete's security ideas. No-ones gonna pick this mother up and run off with it ! - JC.
 
You are overlooking just one small detail,a colony will only reach a certain size,ie number of bee's,then no Queen will have enough pheromone to hold it together,they will swarm,no matter how big the hive is.

Well said, Hivemaker. Size isn't everything, it's how you manage it that matters.

Steve
 
Well said, Hivemaker. Size isn't everything, it's how you manage it that matters.

Steve

Management won't help you if it's simply too small. Finman uses double Langstroth and bigger. I think his bees would just B-off if you put them in a WBC. :)
 
Management won't help you if it's simply too small. Finman uses double Langstroth and bigger. I think his bees would just B-off if you put them in a WBC. :)

Quite right JCBrum. I just find this talk of massive brood frames a bit extravagant. Even with a 14 x 12 size does matter - the size of your biceps. Some of the frames suggested here could feature in the World's Strongest Man competition. Tim Rose's new hive uses smaller brood frames. From his website it appears that he wants the queen to fill them up quickly so he can space the brood and give her more room to lay. ( I haven't explained that well at all. There's a pdf file on his website that shows it in detail http://www.rosebeehives.com/slideshow.pdf).

Anybody considered smaller frames?

Steve
 
Rose pdf ... interesting management techniques, including:
# not using a queen excluder
# extracting honey [for sale] from any frame without brood present at that time ... though may have had brood in it in the past
# making more space for growing brood nest by splitting the brood nest with a box in between
# migrating the old bottom brood box up the hive to become the top - honey - box, then removing the mucky old frames [from which you have, incidentally, just extracted honey-for-sale

some of these techniques feel a bit odd to me ... but Rose evidently uses them with success ... and no trouble from his Trading Standards or Food Standard agencies { Food Safety Authority of Ireland?}!

Anybody any comments on these??
 
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The frames must fit his extractor. Anyone know if they fit the normal 9 frame radial?

I asked him and never got a positive response. Didn't think to measure when I last extacted, so still don't know!

Regards, RAB
 
Having one sized smallish frames throughout is a well established technique. It is commonly done with 3/4 Langstroth frames. I have a colony on this system at the moment. The Rose idea is simply an adaptation of the method using National type long lugged frames which are between full depth and shallow in size - i.e. Langstroth 3/4 sized. The big advantage as with any system using the same size frame thoughout is after the first honey crop you will always have drawn comb for the brood chamber(s). I would be reluctant to move frames in the opposite direction but away from the brood area they are supposed to clean them out for honey storage.
 
It still means that with a big fast breeding colony you have to use double or triple brood boxes.

The idea of big frames in the brood box is to keep the number of frames low when using 'superbees', and thereby keep the inspection work to a minimum. Only one box to go through instead of two or three = 1/3 of the work.

The idea of using small frames in a honey super is to keep it light to lift, and easy to extract in commonly available extractors.

Serious professionals will always have their own work systems to maintain necessary overall financial viability, but it doesn't mean their kit will suit serious amateurs who have different constraints.
 
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600mm by 4500mm deep

Blimey. That would be a hive in one frame, Pete?

OK, OK, I did read the next line.....

Regards, RAB
 

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