New Beekeeper Question

[The New beekeeper]

Hi every one, I am new at posting into the forum. I have a question, I went to the apiary yesterday to treat the hives for varroa. In one of my hives I found all the bees are in the front three frames of the hive but the frames in the middle and the back were full of honey. This hive was very strong in September when I closed down for winter, and the bees were every where in a 14x12 plus a super. As the numbers are so much less, does it mean they are queenless.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No
That's how bees arrange the nest during the winter (or anytime, come to that) they cluster at the front near the entrance so they are ready to defend it from predators or robbers, they put the food at the back so any robbers have to go through the colony to get to it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

winter colonies always reduce in numbers from the summer onwards as the queen goes off lay so there aren't that many replacements for those that die

 

[Murox]

Not necessarily queen less at all. To clarify things - bees are in a 14x12 plus a super, but you have bees on 3 (14x12) frames with stores on other frames? Without a bit more information its difficult to comment.
at what point in September did you "close them down for winter"?
Is the super still on the hive?
what varroa treatment have you just applied ?
Have they become isolated from the stores?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In future, just be aware that acolony in a 14x12 hive does not need an additional super of stores for the winter (as is demonstrated by your post)

 

[The New beekeeper]

No
That's how bees arrange the nest during the winter (or anytime, come to that) they cluster at the front near the entrance so they are ready to defend it from predators or robbers, they put the food at the back so any robbers have to go through the colony to get to it.

Thank you and many thanks to all others who answered

Not necessarily queen less at all. To clarify things - bees are in a 14x12 plus a super, but you have bees on 3 (14x12) frames with stores on other frames? Without a bit more information its difficult to comment.
at what point in September did you "close them down for winter"?
Is the super still on the hive?
what varroa treatment have you just applied ?
Have they become isolated from the stores?

hi, I closed the hives for winter on around 20th September, the super is still on it with stores, I used api bioxal when I closed down and also when I opened it 3 days ago. I don’t think they are isolated from the stores in either the super or the hive frames

 

[Ian123]

Am I right in thinking you used a single oxalic treatment in the autumn?

 

[The New beekeeper]

Am I right in thinking you used a single oxalic treatment in the autumn?

Sorry I don’t know by a “single oxalic treatment”, but I treated them with apibioxal in September.

 

[ericbeaumont]

treated them with apibioxal in September

How did you apply it, and if more than once, how many days apart?

 

[Murox]

Thank you and many thanks to all others who answered

hi, I closed the hives for winter on around 20th September, the super is still on it with stores, I used api bioxal when I closed down and also when I opened it 3 days ago. I don’t think they are isolated from the stores in either the super or the hive frames

Sounds fine, I note others are asking about your exact method/regime of applying apibioxal.

 

[Swarm]

I believe the instructions with apibioxal are for a single application.

 

[The New beekeeper]

How did you apply it, and if more than once, how many days apart?

Once in September and once 3 days ago which would make it 3.5 month later. Twice in 3.5 month. With an applicator, 50ml per colony

 

[Ian123]

Once in September and once 3 days ago which would make it 3.5 month later. Twice in 3.5 month. With an applicator, 50ml per colony

Ok I’m asking because a single application in September although likely to have reduced numbers would not have killed any mites in cells. There’s plenty of posts here regarding oxalic use or just ask. Your application now is also boarder line in timing and would have been better done a few weeks ago!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Once in September and once 3 days ago which would make it 3.5 month later. Twice in 3.5 month. With an applicator, 50ml per colony

doing it only once in September when there would have been brood present would not have been very effective at all as it will not have killed the mites sealed up with the brood. I'm assuming you trickled the bees with the apibioxial made up into a syrup? if so, the recommendation is to use that method only once in a 12 month period as it can have a detrimental effect on the bees - not so crucial for the workers as they don't live for long, but regular ingestion by the queen could be a problem
For an oxalic acid application to be effective against varroa it either has to be applied during a broodless period or, better if it is applied by sublimation - if there is brood present you need to apply it three times, five days apart

 

[ericbeaumont]

Once in September

Don't worry, you may find the bees come out of winter well. If treatment is ineffective or partially effective, it's likely to take three or for seasons for death of the colony to occur.

As JBM said, one trickle in September will not have reduced varroa by the 90+% needed, and the only way to do that would be to sublimate three times on days 1, 6, and 11. If the drop is still heavy, on day 16 as well.

One trickle in winter would have been useful at the point when least brood would be in the hive, typically at the winter solstice on 21 December or thereabouts. By early January the colony may have a little sealed brood and varroa will be safe from a trickle.

Don't worry about leaving too much by way of stores: I did it when I started and probably most of us have worried about leaving too little. One advantage of the 14x12 is that the brood box will hold enough for a colony and a super is superfluous.

On a windless day at +12C you could check to see what they're doing with the super and if it holds no brood, take it out or leave, but put a QX in-between, depending whether a flow is on and they need the space.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I believe the instructions with apibioxal are for a single application.

I just woke up to that fact (not ever having trickled OA). Do Chemicals Laif expect that to be an effective late summer treatment, or as part of an integrated pest management plan?

 

[Swarm]

No idea but they have the OA licence and I expect most beginners are going to buy the recognised (official) treatments.
To be honest, I think the product was aimed directly at mid Winter single treatment.
In cases like this, the forum comes to the fore when helping novices with their bees and our OP will be in a far better position next year.

 

[The New beekeeper]

B

Don't worry, you may find the bees come out of winter well. If treatment is ineffective or partially effective, it's likely to take three or for seasons for death of the colony to occur.

As JBM said, one trickle in September will not have reduced varroa by the 90+% needed, and the only way to do that would be to sublimate three times on days 1, 6, and 11. If the drop is still heavy, on day 16 as well.

One trickle in winter would have been useful at the point when least brood would be in the hive, typically at the winter solstice on 21 December or thereabouts. By early January the colony may have a little sealed brood and varroa will be safe from a trickle.

Don't worry about leaving too much by way of stores: I did it when I started and probably most of us have worried about leaving too little. One advantage of the 14x12 is that the brood box will hold enough for a colony and a super is superfluous.

On a windless day at +12C you could check to see what they're doing with the super and if it holds no brood, take it out or leave, but put a QX in-between, depending whether a flow is on and they need the space.

thank you for the advice. You mentioned sublimate, on days 1,6 and 11. Is this with apibioxal, if yes what time of the year

 

[blackcloud]

Yes its with Apibioxal or OA crystals which is a fraction of the cost if you can live without retail packaging
You can do it at any time of the year and however many treatment periods you like,but most people get it done outside honey production time and mite population increases after this anyway
I do the first after the honey is off and the last in early December sometimes two more in between if Im taking feeders off or changing the wooden crownboards for perspex ones- its convenient timing
Just ensure you do at least three doses at five days to catch the mites that have been hiding in the brood cells.

 

[ericbeaumont]

this with apibioxal, if yes what time of the year

Yes, ApiBioxal is one approved product to use, and usually after honey is taken off in late summer, but you can sublimate at any time. For example, one vaping on a swarm that arrived recently will knock down the majority of the mites before brood is laid.

By late summer colony size will have diminished and drone larvae absent (varroa prefer the longer drone gestation period), but the varroa population doubles every 3 weeks, and varroa will feed instead on worker brood and become a real threat to the production of healthy winter bees, between late summer and early winter.

As BC said, the main ingredient of ApiBioxal is plain ol' oxalic acid dihydrate, aka the OA you can buy online cheaply to clean wood & boats and all sorts. Chemicals Laif added sugar, which caramelises in sublimators, and silica which keeps the crystals flowing but is also a nuisance in a sublimator. Naturally, it is not so cheap.

Plain OA was used for many years by beekeepers (and bee inspectors, on their bees) until a commercial version was approved (costing £30k+) by the UK Veterinary Medicines Inspectorate with the support of the BBKA. At this point it became an offence to use plain OA, though it is hard to see how a beekeeper might be caught, let alone prosecuted.

If you intend to buy a sublimator, have a search here for threads on the GasVap at one price point, and the Sublimox at another. What is not negotiable is the need for an effective mask to protect breathing and eyes from particulates and organic vapours.