need to do AS - but can't find queen.

[Little John]

Hi acabee,
It may be my turn today to start the demaree, but I hope not. This is what I am going to do if I find queen cells with larvae in.
1. Brush all bees into bottom box (stirred not shaken as not to damage QC).
2. Put all brood clean of bees in top box and leave the no of QC you have in mind. Me 1.
3. Bottom box, two three drawn combs plus foundation and syrup. I am putting no brood in as I am not going to encourage them to build QC.
4. QE between boxes. Theory is that all the nurse bees will crawl into top box to look after brood. Flyers and Q will be left in bottom box.
5. Crown board between boxes when above achieved. They are now two colonies.
5. I will have QE on the flyers both ends until I see pollen going in so that the queen cannot swarm.
Sounds so simple does it not? To work!

Suggest that the box on the bottom, containing the Queen/ workforce (initially)/ couple of frames etc - be the NEW box. That will smell slightly differently to the old brood box, and help reinforce the belief that swarming must (somehow) have taken place.

LJ

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Doesn't the shaking of frames (potentially) damage QCs, even if capped?

If you are performing a demarree solely for swam control purposes you would be knocking all the QC's anyway. Anything else is a split.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes foragers - who will bring in nectar, as I said. Is that going to be enough which which to draw comb at a reasonable rate ?



What is that going to do ? When doing a Demaree AS, the supers between the 2 brood boxes are supposed to be either empty or contain empty comb - they are only there to weaken the level of queen's pheromone, and yet keep the workers within the same box. Nothing is "moved to the side" for at least a week - at least that's my understanding.



The whole idea of this procedure is to mimic a genuine swarm: a situation in which there are no stores in place to call upon.


Unless an effort is made to mimic a genuine swarm situation, I would suggest that swarming will still take place after an AS, because the bees have not been sufficiently fooled.

LJ

Sorry, it was my understanding that you put the super back on the Q+ box.
That's the way I've been doing it
The only time I have lost an AS is when it was too late......sealed QC but queen still there due to bad weather. She went as soon as it brightened up.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry, it was my understanding that you put the super back on the Q+ box.
That's the way I've been doing it

On a Pagden type A/S that is the case.
Wally Shaw gave us a talk on swarming last week. It has been known for some years (although it seems to have been ignored by most correspondents) that natural swarms consist of 70% young bees between four and ten days old (this mix is a must for general housekeeping such as brood rearing wax making etc.) the flying bees have been found to be the instigators of the actual swarming from the hive,
An A/S where the queen is left on original site on foundation brood moved away etc. works because all the flying bees return to the queen thus the bees on the brood frames are happy as there are no flying bees to wind them up to swarm., However the bees with the queen are now in an unbalanced state as their 'swarm' does not contain any young bees for brood rearing etc. Putting the supers back on the Q+ side thus gives the'swarm' back some young bees therefore they feel as if they have swarmed so all is hunky dory.
Different to a Demarree where essentially you are just reducing the population of the Q+ side to flyers and no brood and the 'top box' is just kept Q- until the swarming urge settles but you can easily re-unite as they all smell the same.
Wally is preparing a comprehensive talk on swarming and A/S for the next convention which I think will be well worth listening to - it is then planned to put it on the new improved website. - another handy little tool from the WBKA
Sorry, a bit I know, but the subject was heading that way

 

[Finman]

4. QE between boxes. Theory is that all the nurse bees will crawl into top box to look after brood. Flyers and Q will be left in bottom box.

very strange!

Real excluder trick!

Actually it should happens so that you have Snelgrove board. You lift all brood frames over the board.
Queen with one brood frame is in lower box + foundations.

Entrance of upper box has opposite direction. Bee flye out and return to the old entrance. No brushing.

If you do not have queen, you use a frame which has queen cells.

.

 

[beeno]

very strange!

Real excluder trick!

Actually it should happens so that you have Snelgrove board. You lift all brood frames over the board.
Queen with one brood frame is in lower box + foundations.

Entrance of upper box has opposite direction. Bee flye out and return to the old entrance. No brushing.

If you do not have queen, you use a frame which has queen cells.

.

Hi Finman,
The whole point of this trick is for people like myself who cannot find the queen!

 

[acabee]

Quick update on this thread for those interested...

Checked on Saturday with another beek. No queen in either BB. But now we have 4 charged supercedure QCs. 4 in each in BB. So queen from original BB definitely flown/lost/inadvertently dispatched. So unjoined the old BB and moved to new site in apiary - so now two hives (which am happy with to replace 1 winter loss).

Am I ok to leave this number of supercedure cells in each BB or should I reduce to 1 or 2 per hive?

My understanding is that supercedure doesn't tend to promote swarming....but hey... what do I know that the bees don't!?

acabee

 

[VEG]

If there is no queen then they will be emergency queen cells. Supercedure happens when the queen is still in the hive. I would reduce the number of cells.

 

[Hivemaker.]

But now we have 4 charged supercedure QCs. 4 in each in BB.

If it is supursedure the queen is still there.

 

[stuart]

I have a very full brood box, 2 weeks ago I have put on a second brood box. I swapped a frame from the bottom to the new bb to temped them up. The bottom brood box is still full and they don't seem to want to populate the upper box. I intend to remove a frame with eggs 1with sealed brood food and a couple of foundation and start a nuc to relieve the lower box. Comments criticize any thing will help.

 

[richardbees]

Stuart, you could put the additional BB underneath, presumabl;y you want to keep all the bees in one hive for a honey crop.

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is an absolute must and we should all have it in our library
http://www.wbka.com/images/education/a012queencells.pdf

Is it a sticky yet?

 

[acabee]

Thanks Veg / Hivemaker.
Yes, I should have been more precise: I think they are emergency QCs. They are on the face of the combs and there is no sign of eggs in either BB. So I think queen is no longer.

They were quite early in development when I looked on Saturday, so will leave them to be extended out and pick the largest looking and take out the rest. So leaving 1 per hive.

acabee