Manley or Hoffman self spacing frames for super?

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ksjs

House Bee
Joined
Jul 24, 2011
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Location
North Wales
Hive Type
National
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Having done a search on here about this I'm guessing the answer is something along the lines of whatever works best for you / your bees. I am however hoping for something a bit more definitive on the merits of each when de-capping.

I really like the apparent simplicity of de-capping Manley frames using the side bars as a guide for the knife. Is this advantage all it's cracked up to be or are Hoffman self spacing equally viable?

I'm only talking about a few hives here (National) so nothing large scale and there would be no transport so the non-movement/rocking advantage of the Manley is irrelevant.
 
Few hives? - does it really matter? Try both and decide for yourself. Some extractors are choosy as to type of frame.

The 'non-rocking' is irrelevant and there is no advantasge of one over the other in this respact.
 
The one downside, and I freely tell you this is if you use Manley frames you have to gear up for extracting a good amount of honey from the wax.

The plus side is you gain a lot of wax which is of course valuable.

PH
 
Few hives? - does it really matter? Try both and decide for yourself. Some extractors are choosy as to type of frame.

The 'non-rocking' is irrelevant and there is no advantasge of one over the other in this respact.

Well yes, I thought it did matter as I'd rather have an easy life when de-capping and leave the bees with less re-building work (I understand that with the sidebar guiding the knife when de-capping Manley frames the cut will be more shallow i.e. just under capping so less wax lost).

As for rocking I thought Manley was much less prone to this than Hoffman self spacing? Is that not some of why Manley frames came to be in the first place?
 
The one downside, and I freely tell you this is if you use Manley frames you have to gear up for extracting a good amount of honey from the wax.

The plus side is you gain a lot of wax which is of course valuable.

PH
I'm confused! Why should there be any more 'gearing up' with Manley frames on a few hives than Hoffman?

Also, I thought you'd have less wax as you're cutting less away when de-capping?

Is it actually easier (straighter cut) to de-cap Manley due to same width sidebar?
 
My preference is for the simplest and cheapest super frames. Its no point paying extra for inbuilt spacers when super frames work best at first on narrow spacing ( to get the foundation drawn )and later on they're easier to uncap and hold more honey if they're put on wider spacing
 
I've had people tell me they prefer Manley (or Hoffman) frames because of the stability in the super and because of the ease of uncapping. IME uncapping is pretty easy, I have to admit. OTOH, Dan pointed out only the other day that mechanical uncappers tend to shred the sidebars of Manley frames (IIRC).

I've also had people tell me they prefer "normal" frames because they can push them up to "standard" spacing to get the bees to draw them out, then pull them further apart as the comb is drawn, the idea being to reduce the number of frames per super without the bees building brace comb.

I've even discussed it with some people (at least until I could politely escape) who clearly think whichever frames they don't use are the work of the devil and an abomination that should never have been allowed near a beehive. It takes all sorts, I guess.

Up until this coming season I don't really think I've had enough hives to test it for myself in a meaningful way, but depending on what else I decide to do to with the increased number of colonies I have to look after now, I might try experimenting with a few alternatives to see what happens. As a rule in the past I've preferred self-spacing frames, but I'm not convinced that they're the best solution for supers.

James
 
Ok. I just measured a Manley frame. The side bar is 45mm. From the outside of the sidebar to the bottom bar is 11mm.

In my book removing 22mm or a depth of 45mm counts as a lot. Not a scientific term I agree but having uncapped thousands of the blessed things I think I can safely say it results in a lot of honey in the uncapping tub.

If you work it out on the theoretical basis that is 48.84%

Hence my comment you need to be geared up for that situation.

Simples.

If you work Hoffman than obviously you will have considerably less, but there are advantages to having the deeper cut.

There is also the further reason that Manley invented them which does not realy apply to poly but very much so to timber which is effectively you have an inner wall.

PH
 
"There is also the further reason that Manley invented them which does not realy apply to poly but very much so to timber which is effectively you have an inner wall. "

all the more important for those determined to mix poly broods with wood supers - must be a shock to the system, even in (british) summer, heading up from a nice cosy poly brood box into a cold wooden "loft".
 
There is also the further reason that Manley invented them which does not realy apply to poly but very much so to timber which is effectively you have an inner wall.

PH

Interestingly, Dr.Carl A.Jurica developed the same line of thinking and used the closed-end frames (as an inner wall) in his mating nucs.

see: 'Practical Queen Production In the North'.
 
he also uses half length frames - 20 to a super with a bar down the middle.

same frames, put in supers on the honey flow and then stored over winter for use as food combs in the mating nucs first thing the following year.
 
the top and bottom bars guide the knife, not the side bars.
Good point, I'm being an *****! I guess I meant that as all bars equal in width, the blade cuts straight.

See my post below - just realised I've been labouring under belief that all Manley bars are same width when in fact they're not.
 
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Ok. I just measured a Manley frame. The side bar is 45mm. From the outside of the sidebar to the bottom bar is 11mm.

In my book removing 22mm or a depth of 45mm counts as a lot. Not a scientific term I agree but having uncapped thousands of the blessed things I think I can safely say it results in a lot of honey in the uncapping tub.
I'm confused...again. I think I may have found the answer as to why and why my original question doesn't now make sense. I had thought that top, bottom & side bars were all the same width in Manley frames, having looked at a photo, they're obviously not i.e. top and bottom are thinner. This I assume gives the deep cut you're talking about. Unless of course you de-capped using the sidebars as a guide (why should bees always build cells to the depth of the sidebar or beyond? Or do they not) or is this not practical?
 
Good point, I'm being an *****! I guess I meant that as all bars equal in width, the blade cuts straight.

Hi ksjs, I appreciated where you were coming from but was merely pointing out that cutting to top and bottom bars removes a greater amount of wax than cutting to side bar level would; hence not necessarily removing 'less' wax.
 
Hi ksjs, I appreciated where you were coming from but was merely pointing out that cutting to top and bottom bars removes a greater amount of wax than cutting to side bar level would; hence not necessarily removing 'less' wax.
I've never de-capped so wonder what standard practice is if doing it on a home scale? Using the top and bottom bars as a guide whilst holding the frame one sidebar at top and one at bottom seems easiest but can you do the 'opposite'?

Looking at a photo it looks like you couldn't unless of course comb was 'above' the depth of the sidebars?

I think I'm talking about things I have no idea of and maybe missing some really practical / obvious things. Hopefully I will find out next year (I have Hoffman frames waiting to use but was minded to get some Manley ones as they did seem to make more sense, now I'm not so sure...)
 
Using the top and bottom bars as a guide whilst holding the frame one sidebar at top and one at bottom seems easiest

If I'm visualising correctly, that's exactly what you want, their benefit in extrasction is the simplicity of running the knife straight down the two parllel guide rails (top and bottom bars) but once the combs are fully drawn to their maximum width this results in a fair amount of wax/honey to process through an uncapping tray or whatever other method you choose to use -pressing etc.

Not quite on topic, but a tip which you may find useful:

If you make up a flat board of maybe two inches thick (not that important so long as it's not too deep, to some extent you'll be governed by the depth of your super) with measurements just a little (comfortably) smaller than the inside dimensions of the super you will find that when you come to extracting you can place the super on the board in such a way that the bottom bars of the frames are resting on it but the actual super itself is over-hanging. Then, simply by using bodyweight you can push the super down which effectively 'pops' the frames which are unable to move because of your board. Saves breaking them out one at a time.
 
KJS? Invest in a few of both. Put your hoffmans between the manleys until they are well on the way, then put manley next to Manley.

On saying that I don't. My bees happily make a bonny job of drawing Manleys out from foundation.

PH
 

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